Deposit on knife orders

Thanks Peter, I just put it on the the makers page on both Blade Forum and CKD. Will be on the Available Page on Cactusforge as soon as Chuck can do it.
Thanks again for all the input. Gib
 
Here's my 2 cents. I will never again pay a deposit for a custom made knife unless it is of some very exotic material, or a design the maker could not sell elsewhere. Just as knifemakers have been burned by customers, some customers have been burned by knifemakers. I placed a 50% deposit on a bowie knife from a very talented bladesmith. The knife is over a year and half late from the promised delivery date. Will I ever see this knife? I'm not sure. Just remember, if you ask for a deposit, you have just entered a legal contract and can have very nasty things happen to you for not providing something you promised. Many knifemakers have gone out of business because of this. If you can avoid this pitfall all together then do it. Only accept deposits if you have to. If you are burned by someone, or someone backs out of a deal, it is best you find out why, correct the problem. Don't use a known failing tactic because you got burned.
 
Gib Guignard said:
Joss, From a makers standpoint I am tired of getting a order and then the buyer giving me the old song and dance, blame every one els for the reason thy haven't paid. This has happened to me more than you think.
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The difference is that you still have the knife, which you can turn around and sell right away to someone else (unless it's something unusual and hard to sell to another collector). It might be a PITA, but it's not comparable to having several hundred dollars disappear for several months - if they ever come back.
 
Don't use a known failing tactic because you got burned.
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UHHH??? With all due respect Jimmy I have been selling crafts of various types for over thirty years, I have friends in the art world, and in the custom built auto/motorcycle world, and even in the custom flooring world and it is a normal course of business in all of those to take a deposit. In fact the knife world is the only market that I have encountered that is different in that way at least amongst some. Taking a deposit is a double edged sword for a maker, yes but it is by far not a "failing tactic". The problem I so often see is that many makers start out as hobbyists and then without any busy planning/knowledge decide to go full time - if your going to be in this business full time a maker MUST understand that that is what it is first and foremost - a business and that means a lot more than just standing at the forge or the grinder and doing what you like best. (I spend a minimum of 10-15 hours a week dealing with vendors, doing billings, talking with customers, etc.)

The difference is that you still have the knife, which you can turn around and sell right away to someone else
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Again with all due respect Joss that is easier said than done, unless you are one of those makers whose works are in constant demand. In my case with leather work it's usually impossible to resell the item, as a sheath for instance is a "one off" to fit only a specific knife so what does one do after getting it all finished and then having the customer not pay you for a multitude of reasons including illness or death? With a deposit I at least have something out of it. (And no I would NEVER hold a customers' knife "hostage" except in an extreme situation)

We all personalize things - once burned, et al, and I am no different than the rest of you in that respect, but on the other hand I've gotten to see the situation from both ends of the spectrum as both a maker/artist and a consumer.
To go a little deeper into some of the points voiced here - it may seem to you as the consumer reasonable to expect a maker/artist to finish your project on a set date, but in my experince as a one man shop there are times that a "time table" just cannot be kept. For instance you're all welcome to come see my "garbage bin" of perfectly good "seconds" which are all sound and well made and most people wouldn't see the problems, but I KNOW they are there, and NOTHING ever leaves my shop unless it is top drawer and often that means making things 2 or 3 times (and sometimes more) to get it right. On top of having to redo something (and it always seems to happen after you've got everything just about right...) one may have health problems/accidents crop up, machinery break downs, etc all of which are part of the daily grind and can cause major set backs for for those of us who do this and only this for a living.

My craft is my family's SOLE source of income so getting behind is a stress not only psychologically, but also financially. So far all of my "late" customers have always felt it was well worth the extra wait because the end product was "right" a piece of "art" and not just shoved out the door to meet an arbitrary timetable - but I've got to say - Jimmy, 18 months is pushing the boundaries of patience for sure.

Like Peter Nap said my normal business practice is to require a deposit - no ifs, ands, or buts - and I fully understand that practice may turn some customers away, and well that happens. As Abe Lincoln once said you can't please all the people all the time (and in my experience trying to do just that is what so often gets makers, especially new ones, in trouble than just about anything else!).
IMO - For the customer or the maker there is no reason to get bent out of shape over this point if it is stated clearly up front - when a potential customer states that they will not pay a down payment than I just politely tell them that sorry, but that is my business practice and then point them to other makers and that is usually best for both concerned.
I think the following are pretty good words of advice for new makers - As somebody who makes his living like this it's not easy turning down business, any business, but on the other hand if you the maker and the customer start out at odds, no matter how little they may seem at the time, then more than likely some "problem - real or imagined - will crop up and sour the deal for both of you. And there is nothing worse for a maker than an unhappy customer (we all get some over time but still prevent it when you can without bending over backwards)
Somebody uses as his tag line something to the tune of - Without collectors there would be no makers. Well he's got it half right anyway - because the reverse is also true. So we just have to all get along and the customers need to realize that sometimes a particular maker no matter how much you want their goods just ain't the way to go and vice versa.
I prize my customers as "friends" and appreciators of my work as much and often even more than I do for the money they pay me. Bottomline is good, open communication between the maker and his customer and that is a two way street.
 
Obviously, if it's so custom that it cannot be resold to someone else, you're right to ask for a deposit. I think this falls in the category of "hard to sell to someone else", which I think everyone agrees warrants a deposit.
 
One thing that is key in what has been said here is the communication. I think most collectors realize there can be extenuating circumstances in a one-man shop. If there is a sincerity and honesty between the maker and client, and problems are forthrightly explained in a timely manner, there is usually a tendency to understand.

It's when people start to dissemble, or play games, or downright lie that a serious problem arises. This is occurring right now with respect to someone offering to sell knifemakers' equipment and not delivering, and several of my friends have been stung.

One has to be careful about giving deposits, getting some assurances the money is returnable if the deal breaks down. One also has to be careful about taking them, trying to judge if a customer will pay when the product is ready. (A major difficulty in this is the internet; you often don't get to look the people in the eye and take the measure of the man.) This will always be a periodic topic as long as there are artisan-produced custom items for sale. Unfortunately, that means there will always periodically be both unhappy clients and unhappy artisans. There is no easy answer here, it is all a matter of the integrity of both involved.
 
Mike, You are right on INTEGRITY is the answer. When I take a order and a deposit the customer will be the first one to know of any problems. When the knife is done and I start on the sheath I let him know when the Knife will be ready to ship so he can gather up the rest of the money and send it to me.
But this time all the communication was from my side and I never got a straight answer always some excuse.
If a collector has been stiffed or lied to by a maker, well known or other wise then this should be published on the Forums so we all know. Just because some one is famous dose not mean that thy are honest.
Gib
 
You are oh so right about that, Gib. It is an absolute two way street. And, as we see here, the problems go both ways.

In the final analysis, it is surely all about integrity. Fame or money have nothing to do with whether one has the balls to be a man about how they deal with other people. Actually, fame may be a negative, when some people start thinking they are "above" the bounds of propriety, and start taking advantage. Doesn't happen to all, of course, but it's happened to some.

I hope that knife sells quickly, Gib. It's a nice one! Crap like this is part of what made me quit selling knives. After a long layoff, I find myself very hesitant to be interested in it again. If I do decide to sell them, it is going to be "off the shelf" of what I have available. That's not wise business, but it'll help preserve a dwindling sanity..... ;)
 
Again, I can only base my policies on my experience. As far as my main business goes let me give a few examples of what happens even when you are dealing with companies that should be honest. A nationwide mapping company rented several thousand dollars worth of LCD projectors. They put it on their credit card. The bean counters thought the sales people were spending too much so they disputed the charge.

A computer learning company that advertises on national TV rented several thousand dollars of laptops and then sent the credit card company an affidavit stating they never made the charge. (I was one hour away from charging the president with felony fraud before he paid up)

A well known travel agency wrote us a bad check for $450.00 and on Monday the accountant who signed it goes to the pokey!

A representative from one of the pharmaceutical companies stole an LCD projector.

A candidate for Virginia Beach City Council rented about 8 grand worth of equipment for his campaign (BTW He Won :eek: ) He didn't pay up, hid the equipment and when I found it it was one laptop short. I still haven't gotten paid or gotten the laptop back and he's still on city council. Real honest bunch....huh.

A well know candidate for president who was a General at some point :footinmou tried his very best to not pay for the printers, computers and copiers for his Va campaign. His lawyer had the nerve to tell me that this was no ordinary person and I would be sorry if I tried to sue. I tried, he paid and I'm damn glad!!!!! :D Now this man was a top contender to be president of the United States. Still think some people shouldn't pay deposits because of title.

These are just recent deadbeats. The list could go on for hours.
My point is that it is very difficult to know who can be trusted these days.
 
I don't charge a deposit simply because I don't want to deal with it. I haven't gotten burned yet but I'm sure I will eventually and when that happens, I'll have to rethink it...but then I'll just have another one for my own collection... I'm my biggest collector :D
 
Guy's the major reason i require the 50% deposit is simple beacuse the deposit covers the cost of material's . if i need to farm out the H.T to paul bos , order ivory . i don't like taking them but as stated by other's i can't afford to buy everything " out of Pocket " and be given a excuse why it can't be paid for after it is completed . i have only had a couple people diss agree with this so far . most of these deposit's are good for both the maker and the customer . i give the customer a realistic delivery date and i keep that delivery date . updates are very important i usually call the customer and give them the update in person . im not trying to argue with anyone here just stating my way / opinion . :footinmou
 
I have never been asked to pay a deposit. In fact, I have tried to give a few makers some or all the money up front(worrying that I would not have the cash when the knife was done), and have been turned down every time. The notion of a non-refundable deposit is pretty unbelievable to me.

I am editing this post to add that I don't order off the wall stuff that the maker might have a problem selling later. I can see deposits possibly being in order, if somebody is ordering a very unique item.
 
Gib and who ever wants to listen

Deposits suck BUT :( this is my say on the subject..
I do this for a living and have for some time now..as many of you do.
some don't and have not been caught yet. like Gib says it sucks .
I don't want to worry about the money I want to make knives..

I have a list of knives to make (My Back log.)

I ask for 25% when I start the job.
I don't want it before I start but some do send it anyway., as some guys will send the full amount ( I hate that) sad to say it does feel like you're doing it for nothing at times, and if you keep it in the bank and don't touch it
you just get use to looking at it like it's yours anyway. just a feeling of fact on this end of the phone line..

I have two big reasons why..a deposit
1 if I spend time on a blade and the buyer backs out for what ever reason..??
I could have been working on the next guys knife, the guy that backed out just stole time from me and my other customer, and we will pay for that time..
but don't despair read on..

2 the deposit help you average out your income a little too, paydays can get
a ways apart.

NOW unless it's a butt ugly blade the customer came up with ( some I won't do because is not me in there anywhere :barf: ;) )

I offer a money back satisfaction refund if he receives the knife paid in full and don't like it
it don't matter why but he'll get his money back( if in new condition with in 30 days..but he'll cover the shipping I support UPS and USPS enough now...

if he paid the 25% deposit and bugs out on me... sorry guy it's gone,,, well maybe....
But I understand we all have problems from time to time and I will offer his deposit
towards another knife if he would like at a later date,, fair??,

so that said,,, my customer pays 25% down normally
I should add ,,,this is for the first time customer only and not limited to them.

the rest gets played by ear ( past customers and the like), but we have to have a plan.. a sound one.

it's too easy for the K mart kids to have there way.
if you get a deposit you now know he is a buyer not a joke ready to happen.
references will help in this department too.

I could go on but I won't :)
 
First of all let me say that it's a credit to the participants here that this topic can be discussed both with absolute candor and with respect for differing views.

Dan, while I am not a fan of deposits (as you may have gathered ;) ) I find nothing objectionable in your practice because a) you are asking for the deposit at a time more proximate to delivery, and b) you're not asking for a huge percentage up front. I actually think that the "spreading out the payment" aspect can be a benefit to both parties - from my standpoint it diminishes the size of the largest pile of money I have to assemble and can make things less painful for that reason. Like Danbo, I have unilaterally offered to do this on several occasions, and with the exception already mentioned, I have been turned down.

It may well be that the field of custom knives is different from that of other custom commodities and products in generally NOT requiring deposits. I suspect that may in part be because in this field, the timing of the delivery of the product is, shall we say, more art than science ;) . Now, I couldn't agree more with Gib that there are many entirely valid reasons why a knife may take longer to deliver than originally expected - including the makers' own exacting standards that won't allow anything but his / her absolute best work to leave the shop. Frankly, I have no idea how a maker with even a moderate backlog of orders can forecast delivery with reasonable accuracy. I generally regard delivery dates as, at best, an optimistic estimate and it doesn't bother me in the least when they run long (key here again is communication).

That said - the general uncertainty of delivery does take on a problematic dimension if large portions of purchase price are demanded right at the very outset. If Maker X has has asked for and received a moderate deposit at the time he started working on MY knife and runs into some unforseen problems with MY knife, well, even starting over from scratch the delay between deposit and delivery won't be THAT long. If Maker X has asked for and received half or all of the payment up front, and runs into unforseen problems with the some of the 20 or 30 knives ahead of mine, the ripple effect on the delivery time of MY knife is HUGE, and becasue I am now out of pocket for a BIG chunk of change for a LOT longer than expected, I am not a happy camper.

Just my thoughts.

Cheers,

Roger
 
Rodger, I agree that it is a really nice thing about this site that discussions don't become battles.

I also agree that knifemakers are a breed apart form most other forms of art. I suspect that the reason is that most makers start as hobbyist and slowly move into the business area. This also gets many of them in trouble because they are nice folks to deal with. I am not suggesting that the customer be treated as the enemy, just the opposite, they need to be pampered. They pay the bills. I just feel that deposits are part of a sound business plan because of the potential loss.
Remember, I said the policy should be enforced with a warm friendly smile.

On the other hand, the customer has a certain amount of risk also. That's why it's so important for the maker to maintain a sterling reputation.

Almost 4 years ago I sent a shotgun to a gunshop called Kurt's Kustoms in Florida. Kurt had a reputation of doing splendid work but being late finishing. He has lost the gun I'm sure and won't return emails anymore. This is my fault as well as his because he did have a bad reputation and I ignored it.

The relationship between the maker and the customer has to be a comfortable situation for both. The maker can feel protected some by a deposit and the buyer can feel reassured because he is dealing with a AA rated smith.

Both are winners!
 
Dan, your policies are very smiler to mine except that I have been asking 50% which may be too much but mady not.

The contrast between us is that the only time I have back orders is over the fall and winter and then I don't take a deposit on a order that will take over 3 1/2 months to complete. Right now I have one order that will be shipped by the July 4 and on one that I don't need a deposit on and is more involved than the Bowie.

Like you said a deposit says that the buyer is for real and not shopping and plying games.

Roger, If I had 20 or 30 Knives and Hawks back ordered that would be like Heaven on Earth and I would not take deposits on more than the first dozen

Gib
 
I'm staying 6-7 months behind, so it averages it out for me gib
but has it's own stresses ,,
I'm not sure if it's better to be stressed out or stressed in :confused:
if you know what I mean? :)
 
Dan, it never gets any better. I worry myself sick when business is slow and work myself into the ground when it's good.
I Bi%&h about it either way! :rolleyes:
 
P-Don ?? I'll find out your real name one day guy... :D
I hate working myself into the ground, I got tired of that years ago
it just got me dirty all the time :D
maybe that's why I'm back orerded all the time now :confused: :)
 
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