deposits on knives and delivery of them

Boink

Boink

Joined
Jun 6, 2002
Messages
2,986
What would you do in a situation where you'd love to get a knife from a respected maker and the following is available and being imposed:

A knife you desire and can afford will just so happen to be made ready by the maker for inventory, as apart from and in the midst of doing other knives for other customers and for shows. It is the knife being made for inventory that initially sounds like it might be available sooner, so you want to go for it.

A deposit of 20% is requested. So far, it's all good.

Then, the maker expresses that he does not have the faintest inkling as to when that knife will be ready, due to how busy things are in the foreseeable future.

Do you pony up the funds and then wait for what you know up-front has no sense of time that you might get the knife within?

Or would you rather be "on the list" and then when it's time for your knife to actually start being made, you make your deposit payment.

This maker requires the 20% deposit with the idea to be fair to all the other customers.
 
On the list.

In my opinion, a maker should offer an expected delivery date in return for that deposit. For that matter -- and I say this fully recognizing that this is an area where reasonable minds may differ -- I don't think a maker should ask for any money until such time as they are ready to start work (which would include ordering non-standard materials) on a knife.
 
I have no problem with sending a reasonable deposit for a knife, but that deposit is being made in good faith by me and I would expect that the maker would tell me when the knife will be ready. When I order a knife I do not expect a guarantied delivery date. However, it would be totally unaccepable to me to pay a deposit and then to have no idea when I was going to get the knife.

This must be a very popular maker if he is taking deposits on knives that he was planning on making anyway. It sounds to me like the deposit is being taken just to put your name on the top of the waiting list. You may be one of a bunch of people that have done this. That may be why the maker can't give you a delivery date, he might have a few of these knives that he has to make that already have deposits on them. This is just conjecture on my part, but it is plausible.

Personally, if the maker is not able to let me know when my knife will be ready, I would rather go on a list. That way, if my taste in knives has changed I can order a knife the way I want it at the time my name comes to the top of that list.
 
I offered this notion during the most recent email:

In the event a basic affordable knife winds up delivering in six months or so, with that degree of wait, I might have wanted to go for the more snazzier version available within the maker's current backlog time of 8-10 months. All I would do is save up until then.

But if the lower cost affordable knife delivers sooner than that, then fine, may as well have something I'd like for what I am able to presently afford.

I also floated the idea of list waiting and then paying up when it's time to make the knife.

The maker's response was what I had mentioned in the starter of the thread - ignoring my request for possibly going for the snazzier knife; emphasising on no delivery date is possible to be given and that a deposit is mandatory so as to be fair to his other customers.

At that point, i figured I'd look for opinions of custom knife buyers more experienced than I am.
 
I don't understand what this maker means by "fair to his other customers". My guess would be that he has a policy of taking a 20% deposit from everyone and that if he didn't get one from you that it wouldn't be fair to the others. This has nothing to do with not being able to give at least an approximate date of delivery. This maker would have turned me off enough by this time that there is no way I would want to do business with him.
 
Since he wont give you a time frame, is the deposit refundable if you cancel before he starts your knife? That would seem only fair.
 
Personally I would have to know from a number of his prior customers that his word is good, i.e. if he tells you a certain time frame that you will see a knife at that time. After my recent experience with a certain sheathmaker and having seen some of the horror stories/posts re: some knifemakers I am uncomfortable with laying out money ahead of time. That being said 20%, depending on the knife, may not be a lot of money so it might be a small gamble for you. I suppose in the end it comes down to how badly you want the knife. For example Jim Keating highly reccomended the Pikal 180 knife by Rob Patton to me last time we talked, he couldn't say enough good things about it so I contacted Rob and ordered one. This being the busy time for him with shows he told me 2-3 months and asked for 50% as a deposit, based on Jim's assessment/reccomendation of Rob I didn't think twice about mailing him a cheque the same day.

TK & SS

SimonP
 
I recommend to my clients to never give a maker a deposit.

With 2 Exceptions.

1) You are asking for something that would require a out of the ordinary out lay of cash for the maker. Very Expensive Ivory, Jewels, Gold, etc.

2) You are ordering something that just about every other knife collector in the world would find butt ugly. Then you pay 100% up front.

If you are going to give a maker a deposit, never give more than 25%...ever (expect in the case of the 2 exceptions).

Next, have the knife maker write up a receipt that gives you the following:

Cost of the knife.
Amount of deposit.
Balance due upon completion.
Estimated delivery date. (this is where you as the collector can put in a "fill or kill" date. That is to say, either the maker has the knife done by that day or he sends you a full refund of your deposit that day.

By the same token, the maker can opt to put his own "fill or kill" option. Such as you own the money within 30 days of the knife being finished or it is his right to re-sell the knife and keep the 20% deposit.

This boys and girls is a legally binding contract between both parties. Providing protection to both parties involved.

It also prevents the maker from charging more money for the knife when it is completed. Additionally, if the maker is a member of the Knifmakers Guild and/or the ABS. You will have documentation should something go wrong.

Always pay for the deposit with a check. This will give you additional evidence should something go wrong.

90% of the knife makers out there are great guys and you will never have a problem. However, there is always that 10%. Most of these makers use your money to augment their "cash flow". Which means they are using your money to buy materials for the knife they are currently working on.

This can become a problem if a few people cancel an order or are slow to pay. As the maker may not have money to buy the materials for your knife. Few if any of these makers put deposits into an escrow type account.

Again, this is a very limited amount of makers.

NOTE: A warning bell should go off if the maker requires a 50% or more deposit. Unless you are ordering the aforementioned "butt ugly" knife.

With the exception of the "butt ugly" knife...never...ever pay for the knife in full.

This can and has lead to a whole different set of complications and problems.

Set up your knife order in a way that makes both you and the knife maker comfortable. Additionally, it's essential to keep a good communication flow.
 
I very much agree Randy; there is nothing more to add to what Les has posted.
 
I never require deposits on knife orders. What if something happens to me and I can`t work for some reason? What if I died? Besides it is too much of a hassle to keep up with. I usually just make the knife and send an invoice with a note telling the customer to either send me the money or the knife. In 16 yrs. I have never had a problem doing it that way.
Bill Ruple
 
Thanks to all who’re posting with thoughts and suggestions.

This is a maker of stature to the extent that I don’t think he’s going to purposely rip a person off. Highy, highly doubtful. The man’s established.

Then again, these days of Enron and all, huge monoliths come tumbing down monetarily. There’s the vagaries of twelve-step problems of any flavor that a good man can become afflicted with. Just some thoughts on the problems of mankind.

That being said, it was only a brief “whoa!” type of thought, which dissipated as soon as I thunk it up. Jumping out on a limb, it’s probably more to do with a man that is facing a lot of orders and does not want to commit so that I’ll be hounding him when the time’s up.

The affordable knife in question is told to be a knife in some partially-made components laying around that the maker works on when he finds the time, in between processing bonafide prior orders and preparation for shows. But there’s the rub - how many makers really have the time to work on the one laying around in parts with so many other pressing matters on this mind?

That’s where I came in asking, “if the knife winds up taking close to that of your other orders in your current backlog of 8-10 months, I’d might have ordered a more expensive knife to be proud of and use.” so that is why I’d like an inkling as to when that delivery of the affordable tactical might be.

Lifter and Les’ suggestion of making an official agreement, rather than merely breathlessly and heart-pumpingly sending over the money and dreaming about the knife, is the way to go.
 
If it's a maker that you are familiar with and work with often, of course it's no problem. I have a maker that will just let me send him a few small payments, at my request, before I even pick out a knife I want. I know this maker puts out work I really like, So once I get some funds over to him, I just pick which one I want. A good relationship with the maker would be required for me to send money without a time frame
 
I don't play games with my waiting list. You can't get to the middle, toward the top, or to the top of it. It is just not fair to the others on the list. Place your order, wait your turn. Interestingly, that's why it's called a waiting list. Waiting lists contain customer orders, show knives, and dealer knives.

On the subject of deposits, I have never taken more than $30 per knife on an order. The 30 bucks basically comfirms there is a firm agreement between me and the buyer. I've had very few cancellations over the years.

I had the pleasure of having a table next to Wayne Valikovich at many of the NY shows at the Roosevelt. Wayne made high end stuff and took high end deposits. Wayne put every cent of every deposit into an escrow account. He did not touch this account. Wayne taught me early on that it was just too easy to live on deposit money and you will be out of business very fast if you do so.

Thanks for BladeForums
AL P.
 
Sometimes I do..., sometimes I don't, but I know all the makers I work with quite well. Interesting thread really.., but in general.., I wouldn't make any sort of large deposit with any maker unless the project met the criteria Les mentioned above...
 
Originally posted by Al Polkowski
I don't play games with my waiting list. You can't get to the middle, toward the top, or to the top of it. It is just not fair to the others on the list. Place your order, wait your turn. Interestingly, that's why it's called a waiting list. Waiting lists contain customer orders, show knives, and dealer knives.

On the subject of deposits, I have never taken more than $30 per knife on an order. The 30 bucks basically comfirms there is a firm agreement between me and the buyer. I've had very few cancellations over the years.

I had the pleasure of having a table next to Wayne Valikovich at many of the NY shows at the Roosevelt. Wayne made high end stuff and took high end deposits. Wayne put every cent of every deposit into an escrow account. He did not touch this account. Wayne taught me early on that it was just too easy to live on deposit money and you will be out of business very fast if you do so.

Thanks for BladeForums
AL P.
Click to expand...

I am glad to see that your here Al also to hear your views, especially since my name should be somewhere on your waiting list for 3 knives via Les Robertson.

Simonp
 
I've offered deposits to many makers, and they have all refused them.They have all said that as long as they feel they can sell it if the deal fall through, they prefer NOT to take a deposit, and I'M LEFT handed! Ditto for what Les said;).
 
Originally posted by Simonp
I am glad to see that your here Al also to hear your views, especially since my name should be somewhere on your waiting list for 3 knives via Les Robertson.

Simonp
Click to expand...

Hi Simonp. Actually, Les R. has a standing order on my wait list. He tells me the knives he needs but not who will get them. I don't need to know that.

Let me know what you are getting and I will definitely put my maximum MOJO and spirit of the steel into making them.

Al P
 
Originally posted by Al Polkowski
Hi Simonp. Actually, Les R. has a standing order on my wait list. He tells me the knives he needs but not who will get them. I don't need to know that.

Let me know what you are getting and I will definitely put my maximum MOJO and spirit of the steel into making them.

Al P
Click to expand...

Al, Thanks, your work is already superb I can't imagine how it could improve with even more of your MOJO :) Let's see, you should have the following (all of them I requested as double -edged) Prowler, a pair of gaunts, and a FB Perfigo - actually I requested pricing on that as well as I may want a pair of them too. After that I think I am within one or two knives of having one of each of your creations, at least of your creations that I can find any information on, I am sure that there must be some that I just can not find referenced online.

Simon
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top