Design Ethics Question

W

Will Leavitt

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Jul 28, 2006
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Got a question for the assembled masses. I'm interested in learning to make folders and have read a few books on the subject, what do you think about using a couple of old knives as patterns to make some learner models for personal use? I wouldn't sell them but am having design problems.

Merry Christmas to all,
Will
Formerly known as badbamaump
 
If you do it for yourself, what's the problem? Now if you market *AN EXACT COPY* of someone else's design and claim it is your design, or try to pass it as a genuine article *NOT* made by you, that's two other issues.
 
That's kinda how I felt but just wanted to get more than my own opinion lol

Will
Formerly Known as badbamaump
 
If you are doing it to learn there is no reason not to. Besides most traditional folders are so universal that if you copied them you would not be doing anyone any harm. Lets say a canoe or a texas toothpick. If you do sell them make sure to say it is your version. Now some newer knives may have patents that you could not copy and try to sell as your own. Hope this helps, my 2cents.
 
It's not a Scagel - it's your interpretation of a Scagel design blade.

It's not a Lightfoot tactical - it's your handmade tactical based on a Lightfoot design you really admire.

When someone makes a cheap copy - and starts selling it with the original makers name on it - that's what really gets makers upset.

Calling or emailing the maker is also a good idea. It's a very sincere compliment and they may also offer you a tip or two on executing parts of the design.

There may also be a legal question, but those are my views on the ethics.

Rob!
 
Many, many folder makers get their start by patterning their efforts off of knives they've taken apart and copied or copied a kit.
 
A.T. Barr on Trade Secrets
Have you heard the comment “That's a TRADE SECRET”. What a joke! When I hear those words I get really hacked off. To me that means the knifemaker is afraid of me and my knives. It also means he is very small minded. Knife making would not be where it is today, if we did not share secrets. There are no secrets, only new procedures. Knife making is a very complicated process (when it’s done right), I have been making knives over 26 years and I’m a long way from knowing it all. There have been many knifemakers, that have helped me over the years. I am going to mention a few, but there are many more. To all of them I say "Thank You".
R. W. Wilson, Weirton West Virginia
I had made knives about one year when I met R. W. Wilson. Before long I was on my way to West Virginia. I spent a whole week with him. Wonderful man, he was honored in 1996 with the Red Watson award.
Dr. Fred Carter, Wichita Falls, TX
This man showed me many “procedures” that adds quality to my knives. After my time with him my production went down to half the amount of knives I used to make. My quality (I feel) soared. One time he noticed I was admiring some of his patterns, and he told me something I will never forget. He said “A.T., you can copy anything in my shop, except my name”, now isn't that the way it OUGHT to be?
Kit Carson, Vine Grove, KY
Kit was gracious enough to show me the correct way to make a safe and strong liner lock. I asked Kit if I could pay him something. "He said I could repay him by sharing what he taught me", again that's the way it OUGHT to be.
Just recently, I spent some time with W. D. Pease and John W. Smith. Two great knifemakers that shared many techniques. Over the last 25 years there has been many makers that shared their “procedures” with me on the phone and at knife shows. The majority of knifemakers are caring people. If they see a person is having a problem, they hold back nothing.

There are a few makers that will talk their head off, until I mention I am a maker. Then they become very rude and silent. May the “bird of paradise fly up their nose”.


I have used many slipjoint and lockback knives as patterns. I am like most makers if I have a pattern you like use it just don't use my name .
 
I once said to Bill Moran," I'm going to steal that idea from you". He replied back, " You can't steal it, I'm giving it to you." That is how we all should be doing this work. The better the product is overall, the better the whole industry does.
Stacy
 
I plan on using my Bradley Alias as a design pattern when i try to make a folder:D. Like they say it won't be a bradley, just an interpretation:D.
 
I have had similar experiences with the folks I've met and learned from. As a whole I think the knife industry is quite giving and generous with their knowledge. I can't think of a better industry to be associated with when it comes to that kind of generosity. The old saying that there is nothing new under the sun may be quite true but I always ask for the designers or makers blessings on something they did that I would like to base one or more of my own on if I go that route.

I think this thread is wonderful. Thank you to all that have added their experiences and thoughts on this.


STR
 
Will, I think that so many designs are pretty generic and have been around forever. Most are a variation on a theme that's been around for a long time. If what your copying is truly unique I would contact the designer and ask. If it's not, I wouldn't worry about it.

Rick
 
I have only ever made afew folders they were basic. I was sent a cd with folder and oher knife patents. They show you how they are made and it is my understanding that most of those shown are not comercially sold anymore and some are.
I am with the others your version of a knife is not a problem to me making a fake and trying to sell it as an original is throw you in jail time.

I make knives as a hobby and I would not care who copies them and sells them as made buy them. Just don't say I made it.

I can understand a small time maker just covering his bills and concerned about next weeks rent getting upset if you made something like his and sold it cheaper to put him out of business.

Keep you prices as high as the other guy or everybody will be compeeting for customers pocket change.

Get in and have a go. If you realy feel bad change the shape a little just keep the mechanisum the same.
 
There is no harm in making a traditional folder. Big companies have been doing it for years. There are so many knife patterns that are considered standard. Like the trapper, canoe, stockman, swell belly, and many more and the list goes on.

I have been collecting old knives since I was a kid and still do today. The old traditional patterns are getting harder to fine. That's what makes them collectibles. I probably have better than 400 of my own, dating back to the 1920's and before.

If you decided to re-create something alone this line make sure your name is on it and not the original makers name. Because that would be considered counterfeiting and that is a crime. Just my 2 cents if it means anything. Have a great knife day. ------------:thumbup:
 
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