Design Opinion: Ancient Battlefield Weapon After Being Knocked-Down

Uath

Uath

Joined
Oct 25, 2003
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The ancient battlefields would have been a sweating, heaving mob at times. To think you would never be knocked off your feet, or overwhelmed by pressing bodies would be foolish indeed. That would be like a modern quarterback who thinks he'll never be knocked down.
All of a sudden, your sword, axe, shield, and spear would be useless. Your only hope is that the press of bodies will keep the enemy from stabbing down at you. Obviously, you need too clear a space and get up.

What would save your life?

There also would be hard imagining that, in a shield wall, men might specialize in crawling under and attacking from the ground.

Here's my idea and why. Let's see who agrees, or disagrees...

9-Custom-Hand-Forged-1095-Steel-Hunting-Skinning-Bushcraft-Knife-Timurknives-_57.jpg


1) I pick a knife, because a weapon, such as I describe, would have to be kept on the soldier at all times. Preferably hidden.
2) It would be about 9 inches long and single edge. Nine inches is the right size to hide under clothing, any larger is cumbersome. I like to carry a knife front-and-center(under the belly button. Thus, I like a single edge, because I feel safer drawing it.
3) The blade would be broad and tapering, with no parallel lines, like a tooth. Normally, I like thin, stabbing knives, but in this case, I would want a broad blade that has no chance of sticking, It would be a blood letter, designed to go in and out, but also able to slash.
4) It would have a reinforced point, designed to stab through boots and up into knees and groins without breaking.
5) Again, I like the 9 inch length, because this weapon should have a blade equal in length to the handle. Nothing handles as well when rolling and squirming.
6) The knife would have a definite pommel and guard. Because I like my thumb planted, I think a C-shaped handle, much like a falcata. Also the bade shouldn't be sharpened all the way down. How many times have we all heard about people cutting themselves in knife fights, yet we continue to see knives with no quillions. I thought of using a D guard, but some experts have opined that they are not good in close quarters. The enemy can force the D down over your hand and do terrible things to your thumbs. Still, you don't want to lose the knife.

Think of yourself as a wrestler. What kind of weapon do you want?
 
One of the main targets for spears, in a shield wall, was the enemies feet.
You get knocked down or choose to crawl, you're finished.
Roman pugio
800px-Pugio_175_aC.jpg
 
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I thought of a pugio also. For me, the blade is too long. It doesn't allow a thumb-grip and I don't like double edged knives. The pugio was more of a back-up sword than a last-ditch weapon. I have no doubt that average Roman soldier had a back-up knife tucked away somewhere secret.

Take the smaller seax for example:

yorkknives.jpg
 
You don't like double edged knives, but such daggers have been the preferred fighting style for probably most Westerners from Stone Age to Fairbairn-Sykes.
 
I totally agree, I misspoke. What I meant was that I didn't like double-edged knives as a small weapon tucked into clothing. As I said before, and this is just personal, I can't get used to a double edged knife under my belly. I feel like I might cut myself pulling it out. I'm a thumb man. Remember, this is a design challenge, not just a historical documentation. You have to design what would be best for you.
I favor the front and center carry, with a horizontal sheath. I carry my knife like that every day. It's a great way to get your knife out, no matter your position. It's instinctive, comfortable-sitting or standing, and out of the way. I like the fact that it's in front of you. You can make sure it's there and still hidden, not glaring out behind or beside you with your shirt stuck over it. things can't be that different now from then. There's always been a place for a small knife hidden away, always.
Still, front and center carry is best with a single edge. I'm not fat at all, but I still don't want to jerk a double edged razor out from around my belt buckle when I'm bending, crouched, or sitting.

A long fighting dagger would be the definite choice for many in melee combat, but in the crush of bodies, I believe they're still too long. This is if you're talking about the normal length weapons of 12 to 20 inches overall. You might very well find yourself at the bottom of a pile, or crushed like a grape in a surge, suffocating. I think a knife with the same length blade and handle, say 4.5" and 4.5", has the best leverage. I might even consider a knife with a large, heavy hilt and a shorter blade, say a 5 inch hilt and a 4" blade.

Here's a recreation of a Celtic knife found in Northern France, probably from around 200 BC.

hand_forged_celtic_knife_iron_age_gaul_b.jpg


I have one of these knives. In my opinion, it's a fighting knife. Of course it could be for butchering meat, who knows. It could have served for any and all. It's not a noble weapon though. This was a common man's knife and this pattern was a popular one, found all over Europe.

Here's another common, Iron Age pattern:

flowers%20knife%20copy.jpg
 
Like the pugio, I doubt any double edged dagger has been carried horizontally, with the increased risk of self injury.
british_commando_351x468.jpg
1940%20BD%20Commando%20Trouser%2002.JPG

If your shield wall has collapsed into a "crush of bodies", you're doomed. A flexible spine would be of more use than a short knife, so you can bend right over & kiss your arse goodbye.
Contrary to Mel Gibson, the Scots beat the English with well trained spear & shield squares & circles; schiltrons.
 
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Knocked down in the shield walls equals death. Your only hope was that your mates would clear enough space to recover or push past you, if the Greek historians are anywhere near accurate. If the other side got over you, once the infantry holding their spears vertically came by they finished off the downed men with the sauroters on the butt end of a typical Greek dory. The heavy infantry that excelled at shield walls were made of mature men nearer thirty, more likely to have seen battle and be experienced fighters. They wore heavy armor, especially bronze greaves and helmets if they could afford them--protecting everything the shield would not. And these were the guys getting basically executed if they fell down in battle....There is no knife that would have leveled that playing field.
 
gadunz said:
Like the pugio, I doubt any double edged dagger ha been carried horizontally, with the increased risk of self injury.
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Swiss daggers were mostly carried horizontally, look at the images of swiss soldiers made by Urs Graf.
 
Biting, I agree with your assessment.

First line - fighting and pushing back on enemy's front.

Second line - Making strikes of opportunity made by first line. Fill in the gaps in first line resulting from losses to enemy first line.

Third line - Kill any downed enemy. Fill in gaps in second line caused by first line reinforcement.

Any subsequent lines/reserves - Kill any downed enemy missed by third line. Fill in gaps in third line.

Own wounded taken to the healers AFTER the battle was decided. Unless the wounded was a senior officer. They MIGHT get immediate attention. But probably not. Stripping the dead, both your own and the enemy of weapons, armor, valuables, etc, occurred after the battle was decided. If you were in good w/ your squad/group leader, you got to loot. If not, you helped with the wounded and carried the dead to the funeral pit/pyre.
 
The above might be true in an organized shield wall. Not all battlefields retained that kind of discipline. I find it hard to believe that in the surge and push people didn't fall down all the time.

Have you never played football, even on a sandlot? There are times where EVERYBODY fall down, friend, enemy, referees, whoever. Don't tell me that some people are so big and bad they'll never lose their feet in a crush. I've got terrible news for you; when the tidal wave hits, you're going down. Big and bad will just fall harder.

Not being a military historian, it seems that the Ancient Greeks perfected the disciplined line infantry, which evolved into the shield wall. The Romans perfected it. I'll bet my bottom dollar that every one of them had a short knife hidden somewhere in easy reach. Don't tell me that everybody who stumbled died.
 
Of course people get knocked down and get up again, just listen to that song by Chumbawumba. Comparing football to ancient battle is....interesting. Note that there are rules against hitting a downed player in every competitive sport I can recall. Even medieval tourneys with full armor usually had a prohibition against it due to the increased risk of a mortal injury. Maybe if the QB could get stabbed for going down, he would concentrate more on staying up. It would certainly make competitive soccer less dramatic, with players rolling around at the hint of a push.

The Persian historian who documented the battle of Thermopylae noted that the Spartans fought until their weapons broke, and kept fighting with the pieces until some of them were left with just their bare hands. The Romans didn't conquer the world with the Gladius, it was the Scutum and effective tactics with it that kept their men alive to fight. Well, that and their ruthless disposition, logistical skills, and the judicious use of siege weaponry.

Terrible news: you ask for opinions, you may get some that don't agree with you. Good luck with your thread.
 
There are rules against hitting a downed player in every competitive sport except cage fighting, which isn't sporting.
If your spear breaks lanyard your sword to your wrist, then a 10"+ dagger. When you're down to a 5" knife trying to get thru or around armour, which includes shields, you're finished.
For most of their history bayonets were 10"+ & weren't trying to penetrate armour. Early Napoleonic cuirasses & modern kevlar aside.
 
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This doesn't apply, but I have to vent...

I bought a Pakistan Damascus knife on eBay, $47. The darned thing isn't hard at all. The tip bent over like a fishhook when pressed, no return. I've learned my lesson. No more cheap pretty Damascus crap. I've bought other knives like this. They weren't great, but this is ridiculous. They must have not file tested it at all.

What kind of self-respecting craftsman would send out a product like this?
 
IMO priority one after getting knocked down with melee weapons in general combat is getting back up before you get trampled to death. Even in all-for-fun SCA heavy list getting trod upon is a good way to get hurt-and that's without anyone trying to hit you.
In a shieldwall I would be very leery of focusing too much attention on a downed man, unless he was trying to stick me. Good way to get your thinkbox split and let down the guys to your right and left
 
BitingSarcasm said:
The Romans didn't conquer the world with the Gladius, it was the Scutum and effective tactics with it that kept their men alive to fight. Well, that and their ruthless disposition, logistical skills, and the judicious use of siege weaponry.
Click to expand...

Also people, lots and lots of people. Lost 3000 soldiers? Well shucks, we'll just have to throw another 3000 at them. :p
 
But they start getting lots of conquered recruits through efficient tactics, strategies, logistics & momentum. Gotta start somewhere.
 
gadunz said:
But they start getting lots of conquered recruits through efficient tactics, strategies, logistics & momentum. Gotta start somewhere.
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But once they got that momentum it didn't stop... until lead poisoning and incest sent their leaders completely off the rails.
 
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