Design questions for Lorien/Nathan

LostViking

LostViking

Joined
Jan 1, 2009
Messages
3,427
OK, so I'm still fairly new here. But I'm liking what I'm seeing. And beginning to settle in a bit.

I have had my field knife for a bit now. I'm using it some. It's growing on me. Knives are like wives or neighbors. I like to start out slow and ease into relationships. (For the record, 1 wife, 30 years) so this method has some merit.

Yesterday, I took delivery of an EDC 2 from Phil. It is about to help me make breakfast.

My question or questions, are what was your design criteria for the FK and EDC/EDC 2?
Obviously the names of the knives themselves go a long way towards answering those questions.

But I was looking deeper. And wondering what specific tasks, objectives, or challanges you were hoping to overcome in the design/construction of these two blades?

I bought the Field Knife because of all the praise heaped upon it by the faithful. Nathan's tomato slicing video sealed the deal for me on that one. I look for versatility in a knife.

I bought my EDC 2, because on paper at least. It seemed the perfect companion to the FK.
I have not yet strapped these two to my pack and headed out. That day will come soon enough.

I was just wondering how you guys got where you did with each one individually?
Were they meant to be a team from the onset?

I read somewhere that the Field Knife was not designed to be a "Bushcraft Knife" So I'm curious what it was designed to be.

I don't get overly hung up on terms like Bushcraft. The same goes for tactical.

I'm getting older and slower. But also more adept at seeing through all the hype. The Term "Field Knife" appears to take a less adrenaline charged approach. Capable, but leaving the Mall Ninja in the Mall where it belongs. Just an innocuous name. Sort of like "Truck", I like that.

Since Lorien was the designer. At least that is what I have been led to believe in my readings here. And seeing his posts of well used fireline boots. It aroused my curiosity about the design objectives.

This may have been discussed here already. And if so my apologies.

For my part in this. I truly hope to use these two as they are named. I'm hoping the EDC becomes just that. A versatile, do most, if not everything, type of blade. One that rides on my belt out of my way, until I need it. From extracting peanut butter from it's jar, scraping bark from a Poplar tree, feather sticks, to processing a turkey or whitetail.

I'm looking for/expecting to see. The Field Knife to fill all of the things that are above the EDC 2's weight class. Shelter building, heavier fire prep, general camp cutting, and so on. Basically all the chores between a small knife and an axe that need doing.

Not in a rush, just wondering when one sat down with pencil and paper. What challenges ultimately drove the pencil?
 
speaking for myself, there has been a lot of growth between when I started with CPK and now. I won't tell anyone that I know everything, because honesty.

the FK was my first stab at collaboration with Nathan, although the first time I reached out to him was in seeing if he wanted to co lab a folder

the FK is the result of Nathan's take on a design I'd developed years ago through an outfit named Millbrook Tactical, here in Canada. My friend, a retired JTF2 officer, was working with Millbrook as a manager and trainer at the time. We had previously worked together when I started up an online knife retail store called Bladeworks, and although we work well together, we both got too busy to keep the shop going. We keep in touch, and I always value his feedback wrt my designs, as he's such a pragmatic thinker and has many tours and many years of dutifully serving our country in the field under his belt. He is very good at compartmentalizing things in a way that allows them to be successfully managed, and I think that's what I try to learn most from him to this day. I look to him as a mentor

when I presented the FK to Nathan, it was in a simple form. Just on paper. Nathan changed the profile of the blade, added the thump ramp and generally rebuilt the knife, improving it for generalized *in the field* use. That first collaborative effort proved to me that Nathan was someone I could work with. He is clear about his objectives, his opinions and his rationale and in this day and age, that approach is a rare thing so I value it above many other things. It's important to me that my contributions are valued and Nathan has never left me feeling anything less than part of his team

one day when I finish out my original version of the FK, (it's been years now, and it was originally named Sentinel) I'll show a side by side picture that will illustrate how the knife went from 'tactical' to 'practical'

the development of the EDC evolved from our collaborative projects subsequent to the development of the FK, and represents the most integrated effort so far. I made a 3D model, and Nathan and I met at Blade to hash out the details in person. The DEK1 takes our process to another level, with an actual working model, (and sheath) being developed prior to prototyping. I call it a 'proof of concept', and found it especially important this time around due to its more specialized nature. This is something I learned from the LC, where I would have been able to save Nathan some time and trouble if I had worked out the bugs in advance by building a proof of concept piece first

in my mind, the EDC is basically a replacement for the FK. They are both designed to be useful and comfortable across a panoply of uses. They are both very practical knives for any kind of bushcraft, homecraft, shopcraft, farmcraft or whatever craft a person might engage in that doesn't require a specific cutting tool

some people like small knives, some like medium sized knives, some people like big knives. Some people like having knives of all sizes to accommodate multiple activities. CPK is a knife company, and as such, is expected to provide knives of different sizes and configurations. My job is to help identify areas where CPK can innovate this approach on an individual level, so when I design knives, I do it for 'you and you and you'. I don't do it because I follow marketing trends and what not, I do it because I feel like it can always be done better, and to my mind, there is no one more capable of producing a better finished product than Nathan and Jo
 
I consider the FK an EDC for myself; but I work in the field so it makes sense. The longer handle lends itself winter-mitt friendly for the colder months (easier to landmark the handle/blade whilst not feeling fingers!).

If I was getting back in the Light Infantry, the FK would be pretty ideal for a multi purpose blade (not as a stabby but general use and last ditch stabby with a bit extra length over the EDC). Although a UF might fit that role better. FK fits on the belt, a chest rig or carrier, holster, or just tucked in a front pocket as it is pretty slim.
 
Thank you for the feedback, and information.

As I said, I'm easing myself into the use of these knives. The EDC 2 helped me prepare 3 meals yesterday. Slicing slab bacon, slicing and chopping peppers and onions. Removing sausages from their casings. All pretty standard fare. It did very well. The only tight spot was fitting into a mustard jar. But even that was manageable. So far, so good.

The handle ergos and balance seem spot on. It feels like a natural extension of the hand. The belly allows for comfortable cutting board use.

I didn't sleep much last night. Not related to any of this.
But I got to wondering in my sleep deprived mind. If there isn't an opportunity for a bridge knife, that lands somewhere in the middle of the EDC 2 and the Field Knife.

Not even sure one is necessary. Just where I ended up. I need to do some measuring and some comparing. Most importantly, I need more field time with both of these.

Thanks again for getting back to me!
 
NTL,

I can see the FK as a great daily woods carry knife. Big, but not too big. Competent in almost any situation. I forget if are you in the western woods or the eastern woods. Northeast seems right. But I'm not sure.

Another thing I failed to mention/ask is the sheaths. I have come to view knives and their sheaths as a system rather than two seperate items. The sheath on the Field knife is very cool. I'm considering switching it to Scout Style Carry. I like that it is simple, adjustable and ambidextrous.

The EDC 2 sheath made it onto my belt yesterday. It works well enough. I like the weak side crossdraw setup. I wish I could change the position of the G-Clip so I could reverse that one for Scout Carry handle right position as well. But it doesn't look like that is an option. I may need to look at a left handed version, if there is such a thing available. Or go aftermarket. I'm not as in love with the EDC 2 sheath as I am the FK sheath. But it works well enough.

I have come to really like Scout Carry for light hiking and general woods bumming. It's there when/if you need it. Yet is's tucked nicely out of the way when traveling. It also doesn't give others cause for alarm as you approach. Because they don't see a big knife hanging off your side. But mostly I just like it there because it's tucked out of the way.

I would never have viewed the EDC 2 as replacement for the FK as Lorien stated. So it will be interesting to pit them against each other to see where the strengths and weaknesses are. But also team them and see where they cross over and compliment each other.

I found that interesting. That comment is what actually started me thinking about a tweener/bridge knife.
 
LostViking said:
NTL,

I can see the FK as a great daily woods carry knife. Big, but not too big. Competent in almost any situation. I forget if are you in the western woods or the eastern woods. Northeast seems right. But I'm not sure.

Another thing I failed to mention/ask is the sheaths. I have come to view knives and their sheaths as a system rather than two seperate items. The sheath on the Field knife is very cool. I'm considering switching it to Scout Style Carry. I like that it is simple, adjustable and ambidextrous.

The EDC 2 sheath made it onto my belt yesterday. It works well enough. I like the weak side crossdraw setup. I wish I could change the position of the G-Clip so I could reverse that one for Scout Carry handle right position as well. But it doesn't look like that is an option. I may need to look at a left handed version, if there is such a thing available. Or go aftermarket. I'm not as in love with the EDC 2 sheath as I am the FK sheath. But it works well enough.

I have come to really like Scout Carry for light hiking and general woods bumming. It's there when/if you need it. Yet is's tucked nicely out of the way when traveling. It also doesn't give others cause for alarm as you approach. Because they don't see a big knife hanging off your side. But mostly I just like it there because it's tucked out of the way.

I would never have viewed the EDC 2 as replacement for the FK as Lorien stated. So it will be interesting to pit them against each other to see where the strengths and weaknesses are. But also team them and see where they cross over and compliment each other.

I found that interesting. That comment is what actually started me thinking about a tweener/bridge knife.
Click to expand...

In the Northwestern part of the world here; in the northern interior and all around.

I generally have the FK paired with an axe or the HDFK as I like saving the fine edge on the FK for just that, finer work. Generally do not use knives for chopping with the exception of brushing out a trail which is is limited to brush species.
It isn’t that knives can’t chop, but an axe is so much more effecient for that. Lots of cutting and I use the saw (of the powered type).

Still holding out for that CPK Bowie one day though...
 
Specifically looking at the Field Knife verses the EDC.

Both were austenitized in a range to develop plate martensite which is a harder less ductile variation of Delta 3V intended to maximize a crisp edge and non-impact edge retention.

The Field knife was supposed to be a compact, affordable, unbreakable workman's knife with good cutting performance. The first versions were actually A2 but most were 3V and Delta 3V. This was a knife to be kept in your glove box, tool box, belt or backback. It was intended to be used hard, not shown off to people and the first few were actually unapologetically rough. The original concept was the pry in the tang meant it didn't need a stout point, but as it evolved we started leaving additional meat in the tip.

The EDC was always intended to be a little nicer dressier work knife so the bevels received a cleaner grind and the tang was masked for tumbling for that super smooth scale/tang transition. Like the FK is was hard and thin and was sharpened at 18DPS, which is where the FK settled (15 at first). The edge thickness was about the same but primary grind angle was narrower because it wasn't intended to be quite as robust as the FK. The biggest difference was the EDC was designed from the start to be a every day carry belt or in-the-pocket fixed blade so the extra long multi grip handle, extra spine thickness and longer blade length were eliminated to minimize its footprint. The EDC is very light and compact for the cutting capacity it possesses. It's like the Light Chopper in that it "hits above it's weight". The Field Knife takes quite a bit more space for the additional muscle it possesses.

The original FK, as presented by Lorien, was intended to be more of a tactical knife. At the time I was collaborating with an actual Green Beret special forces badass for the Utility Fighter and wasn't looking towards our Canadian bicycle friend for a weapon, but a practical everyman's tool. So I tweaked the blade shape to reflect the narrow tip drop point with the belly towards the end that I like for both shop work and game prep. This blade shape, which you'll see in a lot of my work, was developed from my own cutting preferences over the years and was applied to the design. The handle length on the FK gives it versatility but increases its footprint on your belt.

I didn't change the EDC much from the original design provided by Lorien, though we'd collaborated on that design quite a bit by the time I received the physical model. Other than scaling it up 5% and reducing the pinch at the end of the handle and making a few very minor tweaks here and there such as tiny changes in the choil and at the front of the scale the EDC was a relatively true and faithful copy of Lorien's design. After the first run I raised the point up a tad, pushed the belly out a tad how I like it and added a little meat to the spine and tweaked the skeletonizing a little to offset the change to the stock thickness and flattened the grip down a little to streamline its carry a little. These were very minor tweaks.

The FK2 will be a variation of the FK but with the pry removed (some people like it, more people don't) and we'll go through the grip development ideation process we used on some of our more recent work where the geometry is built utilizing variable sections sweeps and lofts built on non-uniform rational B-spines that afford us greater control on all areas of the geometry and allow us to dial in and refine a handle better than we once were.

We'll be adding a swedge to some of the EDC2 going forward. People like the way it looks and I prefer the way it cuts when deburring the inside of a hole. You wouldn't think it'd matter, but it does, and that's something I use it for a lot. Probably works a little better as a weapon too if that matters to you.

I plan to offer a run of EDC2 later this year with hand ground satin grinds, swedge and desert ironwood as a "Carothers classic" like I used to finish knives before I focused so much on a utility tumbled finish and micarta.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
Specifically looking at the Field Knife verses the EDC.

Both were austenitized in a range to develop plate martensite which is a harder less ductile variation of Delta 3V intended to maximize a crisp edge and non-impact edge retention.

The Field knife was supposed to be a compact, affordable, unbreakable workman's knife with good cutting performance. The first versions were actually A2 but most were 3V and Delta 3V. This was a knife to be kept in your glove box, tool box, belt or backback. It was intended to be used hard, not shown off to people and the first few were actually unapologetically rough. The original concept was the pry in the tang meant it didn't need a stout point, but as it evolved we started leaving additional meat in the tip.

The EDC was always intended to be a little nicer dressier work knife so the bevels received a cleaner grind and the tang was masked for tumbling for that super smooth scale/tang transition. Like the FK is was hard and thin and was sharpened at 18DPS, which is where the FK settled (15 at first). The edge thickness was about the same but primary grind angle was narrower because it wasn't intended to be quite as robust as the FK. The biggest difference was the EDC was designed from the start to be a every day carry belt or in-the-pocket fixed blade so the extra long multi grip handle, extra spine thickness and longer blade length were eliminated to minimize its footprint. The EDC is very light and compact for the cutting capacity it possesses. It's like the Light Chopper in that it "hits above it's weight". The Field Knife takes quite a bit more space for the additional muscle it possesses.

The original FK, as presented by Lorien, was intended to be more of a tactical knife. At the time I was collaborating with an actual Green Beret special forces badass for the Utility Fighter and wasn't looking towards our Canadian bicycle friend for a weapon, but a practical everyman's tool. So I tweaked the blade shape to reflect the narrow tip drop point with the belly towards the end that I like for both shop work and game prep. This blade shape, which you'll see in a lot of my work, was developed from my own cutting preferences over the years and was applied to the design. The handle length on the FK gives it versatility but increases its footprint on your belt.

I didn't change the EDC much from the original design provided by Lorien, though we'd collaborated on that design quite a bit by the time I received the physical model. Other than scaling it up 5% and reducing the pinch at the end of the handle and making a few very minor tweaks here and there such as tiny changes in the choil and at the front of the scale the EDC was a relatively true and faithful copy of Lorien's design. After the first run I raised the point up a tad, pushed the belly out a tad how I like it and added a little meat to the spine and tweaked the skeletonizing a little to offset the change to the stock thickness and flattened the grip down a little to streamline its carry a little. These were very minor tweaks.

The FK2 will be a variation of the FK but with the pry removed (some people like it, more people don't) and we'll go through the grip development ideation process we used on some of our more recent work where the geometry is built utilizing variable sections sweeps and lofts built on non-uniform rational B-spines that afford us greater control on all areas of the geometry and allow us to dial in and refine a handle better than we once were.

We'll be adding a swedge to some of the EDC2 going forward. People like the way it looks and I prefer the way it cuts when deburring the inside of a hole. You wouldn't think it'd matter, but it does, and that's something I use it for a lot. Probably works a little better as a weapon too if that matters to you.

I plan to offer a run of EDC2 later this year with hand ground satin grinds, swedge and desert ironwood as a "Carothers classic" like I used to finish knives before I focused so much on a utility tumbled finish and micarta.
Click to expand...
I love the constant innovating. Can’t wait for the new FK.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
Specifically looking at the Field Knife verses the EDC.

Both were austenitized in a range to develop plate martensite which is a harder less ductile variation of Delta 3V intended to maximize a crisp edge and non-impact edge retention.

The Field knife was supposed to be a compact, affordable, unbreakable workman's knife with good cutting performance. The first versions were actually A2 but most were 3V and Delta 3V. This was a knife to be kept in your glove box, tool box, belt or backback. It was intended to be used hard, not shown off to people and the first few were actually unapologetically rough. The original concept was the pry in the tang meant it didn't need a stout point, but as it evolved we started leaving additional meat in the tip.

The EDC was always intended to be a little nicer dressier work knife so the bevels received a cleaner grind and the tang was masked for tumbling for that super smooth scale/tang transition. Like the FK is was hard and thin and was sharpened at 18DPS, which is where the FK settled (15 at first). The edge thickness was about the same but primary grind angle was narrower because it wasn't intended to be quite as robust as the FK. The biggest difference was the EDC was designed from the start to be a every day carry belt or in-the-pocket fixed blade so the extra long multi grip handle, extra spine thickness and longer blade length were eliminated to minimize its footprint. The EDC is very light and compact for the cutting capacity it possesses. It's like the Light Chopper in that it "hits above it's weight". The Field Knife takes quite a bit more space for the additional muscle it possesses.

The original FK, as presented by Lorien, was intended to be more of a tactical knife. At the time I was collaborating with an actual Green Beret special forces badass for the Utility Fighter and wasn't looking towards our Canadian bicycle friend for a weapon, but a practical everyman's tool. So I tweaked the blade shape to reflect the narrow tip drop point with the belly towards the end that I like for both shop work and game prep. This blade shape, which you'll see in a lot of my work, was developed from my own cutting preferences over the years and was applied to the design. The handle length on the FK gives it versatility but increases its footprint on your belt.

I didn't change the EDC much from the original design provided by Lorien, though we'd collaborated on that design quite a bit by the time I received the physical model. Other than scaling it up 5% and reducing the pinch at the end of the handle and making a few very minor tweaks here and there such as tiny changes in the choil and at the front of the scale the EDC was a relatively true and faithful copy of Lorien's design. After the first run I raised the point up a tad, pushed the belly out a tad how I like it and added a little meat to the spine and tweaked the skeletonizing a little to offset the change to the stock thickness and flattened the grip down a little to streamline its carry a little. These were very minor tweaks.

The FK2 will be a variation of the FK but with the pry removed (some people like it, more people don't) and we'll go through the grip development ideation process we used on some of our more recent work where the geometry is built utilizing variable sections sweeps and lofts built on non-uniform rational B-spines that afford us greater control on all areas of the geometry and allow us to dial in and refine a handle better than we once were.

We'll be adding a swedge to some of the EDC2 going forward. People like the way it looks and I prefer the way it cuts when deburring the inside of a hole. You wouldn't think it'd matter, but it does, and that's something I use it for a lot. Probably works a little better as a weapon too if that matters to you.

I plan to offer a run of EDC2 later this year with hand ground satin grinds, swedge and desert ironwood as a "Carothers classic" like I used to finish knives before I focused so much on a utility tumbled finish and micarta.
Click to expand...


Nathan,

With regards to the FK2 handle; will it retain the slightly longer than most size/length? That was a huge selling point for me as I do not have monster paws but enjoy the real-estate and space for different grips, gloves, and mitts.
My original FK won’t be going anywhere but definitely interested in what developments are added.

Cheers
Andy
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
Specifically looking at the Field Knife verses the EDC.

Both were austenitized in a range to develop plate martensite which is a harder less ductile variation of Delta 3V intended to maximize a crisp edge and non-impact edge retention.

The Field knife was supposed to be a compact, affordable, unbreakable workman's knife with good cutting performance. The first versions were actually A2 but most were 3V and Delta 3V. This was a knife to be kept in your glove box, tool box, belt or backback. It was intended to be used hard, not shown off to people and the first few were actually unapologetically rough. The original concept was the pry in the tang meant it didn't need a stout point, but as it evolved we started leaving additional meat in the tip.

The EDC was always intended to be a little nicer dressier work knife so the bevels received a cleaner grind and the tang was masked for tumbling for that super smooth scale/tang transition. Like the FK is was hard and thin and was sharpened at 18DPS, which is where the FK settled (15 at first). The edge thickness was about the same but primary grind angle was narrower because it wasn't intended to be quite as robust as the FK. The biggest difference was the EDC was designed from the start to be a every day carry belt or in-the-pocket fixed blade so the extra long multi grip handle, extra spine thickness and longer blade length were eliminated to minimize its footprint. The EDC is very light and compact for the cutting capacity it possesses. It's like the Light Chopper in that it "hits above it's weight". The Field Knife takes quite a bit more space for the additional muscle it possesses.

The original FK, as presented by Lorien, was intended to be more of a tactical knife. At the time I was collaborating with an actual Green Beret special forces badass for the Utility Fighter and wasn't looking towards our Canadian bicycle friend for a weapon, but a practical everyman's tool. So I tweaked the blade shape to reflect the narrow tip drop point with the belly towards the end that I like for both shop work and game prep. This blade shape, which you'll see in a lot of my work, was developed from my own cutting preferences over the years and was applied to the design. The handle length on the FK gives it versatility but increases its footprint on your belt.

I didn't change the EDC much from the original design provided by Lorien, though we'd collaborated on that design quite a bit by the time I received the physical model. Other than scaling it up 5% and reducing the pinch at the end of the handle and making a few very minor tweaks here and there such as tiny changes in the choil and at the front of the scale the EDC was a relatively true and faithful copy of Lorien's design. After the first run I raised the point up a tad, pushed the belly out a tad how I like it and added a little meat to the spine and tweaked the skeletonizing a little to offset the change to the stock thickness and flattened the grip down a little to streamline its carry a little. These were very minor tweaks.

The FK2 will be a variation of the FK but with the pry removed (some people like it, more people don't) and we'll go through the grip development ideation process we used on some of our more recent work where the geometry is built utilizing variable sections sweeps and lofts built on non-uniform rational B-spines that afford us greater control on all areas of the geometry and allow us to dial in and refine a handle better than we once were.

We'll be adding a swedge to some of the EDC2 going forward. People like the way it looks and I prefer the way it cuts when deburring the inside of a hole. You wouldn't think it'd matter, but it does, and that's something I use it for a lot. Probably works a little better as a weapon too if that matters to you.

I plan to offer a run of EDC2 later this year with hand ground satin grinds, swedge and desert ironwood as a "Carothers classic" like I used to finish knives before I focused so much on a utility tumbled finish and micarta.
Click to expand...
Would appear i have plenty of time to save up for the UF's:thumbsup: Time to do an Alcohol Run to Costco-Have a great weekend
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Nathan,

Thank you sir for the detailed analysis of the differences. It all makes good sense. I have read your response twice and I'm still digesting. Lots of good info there.
 
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Lorien said:
a guy called me 'savage' last week, so I'll take fiend. Prefer friend, tho :)
Click to expand...

I have been called a Savage more than once. I take it as a compliment. Especially when it comes from the surface dwellers.
Middle English: from Old French sauvage ‘wild,’ from Latin silvaticus ‘of the woods,’ from silva ‘a wood.’


Never been labeled as a fiend, but there's still time.
 
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great thread with great responses. good info in here for sure. Can't wait for the new EDC and FK2
 
I'm curious, aside from the creative process, what's the technical process from turning a physical prototype (like the DEK1) into a production knife.
 
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