Design theft/moral issue

S

sc_bane

Joined
May 23, 2013
Messages
169
On this forum and every other I have frequented, there is the invariable post every so often about someone claiming someone else stole their design. Being a complete newb when it comes to hand-made and forged knives, I am beginning to wonder what the etiquette is. I design my knives on graph paper, transfer to stiff paper or a thin wood, and send it off to my waterjet/grinding/heat treating guy. He doesn't bother with a maker's mark, but I do. I designed it but he did the heavy lifting. I customize, apply a handle, filework, clean edges, maybe some final buffing, make a sheath.

So is it his knife or mine? I give him credit for the work when people ask where I get my blades (he has asked me to stop recommending him until he gets caught up). I do tell people they are made from bar stock, stock removal knives. Is this dishonest in your opinions in any way?

I saw a post on here from a guy whining and yelling that so and so stole his design and he posted pics of both. While nearly identical, they were both VERY generic looking clip point hunters. This and many other "freeware" designs like Wharnies, Tantos, Bowies, etc are all copied and modified freely. I understand that taking a design, copying it in exactness, then marketing it as your own is despicable, I'm just trying to figure out where the line is between "freeware" designs and design theft. Is it only theft if a blade is patented?

This bothers me, because I design most of my stuff based on knives I have seen everywhere that I like. None of mine are exact duplicates, but some of them are close. I am having a little trouble with that, because I don't want to steal anything from anyone. I don't sit down with a pic of the knife and trace it out, I like to improvise my own lines etc, so is this design theft? I have seen so many amazing knives here and elsewhere that gave me great ideas, is that just artistic progression or theft?

If a design is close enough to be an unintentional rip off, how do you fix it? Whats the etiquette? Contact the original maker and apologize? Offer him a small "license fee?" If any of you hand made or forge guys could take a little time to offer some insight, I would greatly appreciate it.
 
It varies by the degree of closeness:

Design a knife based on one you saw, and build it for yourself....no problem.
Make a close resemblance for yourself ..... probably best to ask the maker, but usually perfectly fine. Usually considered a mark of admiration and respect for the maker.
Copy a design as close to exact as possible and sell them....big problem with getting any respect from the others in the field.
make a copy and mark it with the others name and model type....almost surely get sued.

The guys here will almost always be glad to help you make a similar knife to one of theirs, and no one will think less of you for it as long as you credit the inspiration. The normal way to say it is, "This is a bowie I made that was inspired by the one Nick D. Knifemaker had on the Blade 20XX cover.
 
Thanks Bladsmth. Appreciate your response. I've never duplicated someone's work, Have trouble enough sleeping while pondering if I have inadvertently taken something from someone that deserved credit. I would hate to add anything to the scumbag pool...it's deep enough as it is.
 
I don't think there are many knife designs that are "new" considering how long knives have been around. It would be really tough to have a totally new design that works that hasn't been made before and actually works without injuring yourself.
 
Yep. As Solomon said, "There is nothing new under the sun." That's why I assume few custom makers patent their designs.
 
The basic blade and handle shapes have been around since stone knives. The way a real craftsman goes about putting a modern version together can be technically or artistically unique. THAT'S what we want to learn from, but not reproduce without permission.
 
One man's "rip off" is another man's "homage". There are a lot of makers that do pretty close or identical copies of Loveless, Moran or Scagel designs and I don't hear anybody crying foul. We all borrow in part or in whole either consciously or unconsciously. It is the nature of art. Identify elements for yourself that inspire you and that agree with your inner design sense. Put that inspiration to work when you sketch up your own designs. Nothing wrong there. If you are doing an "homage piece" give credit to the inspiration.
 
Like an older maker said to me, "That's my design"
me: I swear I didn't do it on purpose!
him: Just kidding, it's all been done, there are no more original designs.
me: whew.
 
A quick anecdote... A few months back, I had a hunter commission a skinning blade and while waiting to get his sketch in the mail, he called me and asked to swear that I wouldn't reproduce his design without written authorization from him. I agreed since his design wasn't anything that I'd want to sell on my own. Anyhow, the sketch arrives and the design was basically a sharpfinger (as generic as one can imagine) with just a bit more upsweep that normal. I had a good chuckle and proceeded to make his knife. When it was done, I called him to update him and the conversation turned back to the topic of originality. In his mind, changing the upsweep just bit constituted a whole, new-ground-breaking-concept.

This particular customer wasn't too abrasive and rather open minded so I gave him a link to Ryan Weeks work so he could see just how original his sketch was. In the end we both had a good laugh.
 
I have made a knife for myself based very closely on anothers design but only for myself to try. Id never sell one that way..Im in the camp that so many have been made that unless its truly a one of kind thing to think you are the originator is kinda funny.(of course there is a difference between similarities and copying) I mean just how original is a drop point or a tanto? Or a nessmuk or a puuko? What if you go jump down a guys throat for making a knife similar to yours just to find out hes been making it for years before you? remember just because you haven't seen it on the internet dosnt mean someone dosnt make it???
In all honesty I know of one knife maker who makes a knife(and sells it very successfully) that's a near copy to a knife I had made several times before he had ever even started making knives but mind you this was before the net..Do I think he copied mine??? No, not for a minute because he would have never seen it but it happens..Thousands of different people making knives, its going to happen.
 
I also don't see a problem if credit is given. The only time I've seen very serious and clear theft is between production folders. There have been blatant design theft issues, and the community at large hammers the offender more often than not.

As for fixed blades, the only time I've heard of serious friction is when someone designs something like "talon holes" into their handle, but I find that to be somewhat silly.
 
I once commissioned a folder to be made by a very prominant member of this forum. Totally my design to include the texturing on the handle. He liked the handle shape and asked me if he could use it giving me credit. I was totally flattered and said he could. Some time passes by and I see a couple of knives posted by members created by the same maker with the exact same handle. Problem is one of them posted that he commissioned the knife off of his original design. Even the pattern on the Ti was the same. It left me with an uneasy feeling.
 
I've had several individuals request that I create "exact copies" of various well known custom designs.

I would obviously never do such a thing, but it makes me wonder why some people devalue intellectual property to such a degree.
 
I can only think of one time I've wanted to do a 100% copy of a knife.
I emailed the maker (who happens to be one of the very top handful of American makers) and let him know I wanted to copy it in order to learn.
He wrote right back and said he was done with that pattern and I could do whatever I wanted...make em to sell or just to learn.
...and if I needed any guidance on how to do something I shouldn't hesitate to write to him...which I did, and got some terrifically helpful info.
I still have that knife, and wouldn't sell it...but I used the knowledge to go on and develop my own patterns, which sold right away.

I'd do the same if I was ever to find myself on the other end.
Nobody would ever mistake my copy for his knife, after all it was my first of that type, and he's a jaw dropping master, but the pattern is unusual and a knowledgeable knife person would spot the inspiration.

So all I'm saying, if you're out front with it chances are it'll work out ok.
 
Thank you all for your insight and opinions. It helps to hear reinforcement of what I was thinking from guys with years of experience. It is hard to give credit to the guy that makes my blades...not enough space and two makers marks would be confusing. I recommend him, but he asked not to be recommended anymore due to the amount of work he has. I usually just tell people if they ask, but as I said, I am up front that I didn't "hand make these knives from scrap iron and woodchips, hammer forged totally me me me."
He's happy that my customers like them, but it still bugs me a little. My favorite quote from him btw..."Knifenakers can make decent money on quality builds. Materials suppliers can make a s***load of money off amateurs."
 
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