Designing Swords: Need Opinions

Kumdo

Kumdo

Joined
Mar 7, 2000
Messages
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Japanese traditionalists probably shouldn't bother, as the designs we're working on will not fit your needs or desires. However, I would like many honest comments and ideas.

I am working with Ted Frizzel to design a swords set (long sword and dagger) that we hope to offer for sale by the end of January. The steel Ted uses is forged 5160. This finish will be either satin or light bead blast. I will be wrapping the handle with heavy-duty synthetic cord.

As a practicing Korean martial artist, I have a great appreciation for traditional Japanese and Korean swords. However, I wanted to come up with a design that was inspired by these kind of swords, but had a decidedly contemporary look. This was my first attempt:
concept3.jpg


The idea was to have something that I, or other martial artist could use, but also would appeal to other sword enthusiasts. After showing it to a handful of knife and sword people, several of them remarked that something a little more unique would be cool. One suggested to emphasize the the western influence a bit more. I played with the design a bit and came up with:
concept2.jpg


I like where it's going, but I'm afraid that the new direction will not appeal to eastern-style martial artists. I suppose this is OK, as long as it fit the needs/asthetics of SOME.

I will post more about the tech specs when I get some more time (by tomorrow). In the meanwhile, any commnets or ideas are greatly appreciated!
 
Kumdo,

I appreciate the way that you really tried to make it clear that you weren't trying to pass your swords off as katana.

Of the two I like your original design better but to my mind these attempts look much like Criswell's stuff or Hartsfield's. What do you offer that they don't?
 
Criswall's swords, to me, look much more like an attempt at traditional Japanese sword. Aside from having a different kind of edge and tip (ours will be a full bevel grind, with an angled drop "tanto" tip), the look is very different (to me anyway). Crisell's stuff looks much more inspired by the "real" katanas. I had never heard of Phil Hartsfield, but what I have just found on the net looks very traditional (also very beautiful).

Ted Frizzell makes awesome working blades, and I wanted to supplement his line of production-customs with something that had a slightly different look. Generally his designs are black parkerized with hollow grinds, and I wanted to try something new.

The swords that I want to develop with him have been inspired by knife-makers like Strider. The feel I want will be utilitarian, modern, yet with a little eastern feel.

BTW, the length I'm thinking is ~32" total, 22" blade.

Please.. keep the comments coming.
 
Give us approximate statistics of what you'd like the sword to be. Width at "base" and just before the tip, approximate weight, balance, length, handle length, et cetera.

Criswell stuff does not hold a candle to semi-traditional stuff, yet. He is a knowledged maker and is gradually adapting his style closer to what I would like to see, and I'm happy for it. Hartsfield, hmm I'm not going to talk about that.

It may do you good to talk to Jerry Hossom, who makes more contemporary style swords I believe geared more to FMA practitioners. However, I would perhaps suggest talking to him.

Have fun,
Shinryû.

Addendum:

Sorry I just saw what you said about the 22" blade and stuff. If you do get it made, be sure to find a name that clarifies what it is...don't want people accidentally believing you got a ninja-to. Starts all kinds of arguments!
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[This message has been edited by Robert Marotz (edited 12-05-2000).]
 
Yikes! Criswell and Hartsfield's stuff is many things but traditional it ain't. Even for all his marketing chutzpah Hartsfield never tries to claim that he is making a traditional sword. Check out www.mvforge.com if you want to see someone that is making traditional swords that will out perform just about anything else on the market. If you aren't doing a hollow grind what are you doing? "Chisel grind" maybe?
 
Robert-

Not exactly sure of the dimensions as of now (around 31" total, blade ~2" wide at base). I'd like to come close in weight/balance/heft to MMHW's "Shasqua" sword. It weighs around 2.5 lbs and has awesome balance for slicing-hacking.

I love Hossoms big-ass knives and swords! I want him to set me up with for my Espada y Daga lessons!!

Triton- What i'm trying to say is that Criswell's swords look slightly more katana-influenced than what I want. I didn't say that it IS traditional (not even close!), but the sweep of the blade, the guard and the tip looks VERY japanese influenced. I will not comment on the quality of his swords. Somewhere on the Highlander site, I saw a picture of a katana that I believe was made by Hartsfield. Maybe I am mistaken.

As far as MV Forge goes, they'd BETTER perform for $1300 for a BARE blade! Not sure what you mean by perform, but I bet I could break one in two with a "cheapie" by Ted or half a dozen others. Just kidding. Obviously the swords you referenced are probably untouchable when it comes to what they are made for- cutting.
 
well, even Ted's work probably wouldn't "break" one of my swords in two, though what he makes is very heavy duty and well done. (just so you know, Ted and I have been well aquainted and friends for many, many years).

Yes, my blades are very good, and yes, they are also very expensive. For what you want to do, I think you have chosen the right man for the job. He makes tools that work well indeed, and at a reasonable cost, and does not use a lot of bs to sell them either, because he doesn't have to.

As for the design part of it, I will stay out of that. I like the more traditional lines (obviously). Either of the shapes you already have should *work* just fine. One question, what are the notches in the spine for ? I would maybe suggest that you should just turn Ted loose. Tell him what you want it to be able to do, how much it is supposed to weight, and then let it go. He has made thousands of blades, and has a pretty good feel for what things need to be like to work.
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[This message has been edited by Howard Clark (edited 12-06-2000).]
 
Howard-

This is what I get for shooting my mouth off. You are obviously a very skilled craftsman, and I didn't mean to imply that your swords are not worth what you charge. Basically, the argument about "out performing" is one that I've seen japanese sword enthusiasts use to degrade cheaper or different styles of swords. What I meant to illustrate is that while the light, sleek design of a real katana, tachi, etc. will slice faster and deeper through say flesh, a big chunky "sharpened crowbar" sword is better at hacking at a material that might otherwise damage the razor edge of the fore-mentioned swords. Maybe I'm wrong. I certainly have never tested this. (I do have a Paul Chen that retained major damage when it was accidental clanked against an aluminum chair. Yeah, I know that Chen swords are cheapies.)

As far as letting Ted design the sword- I am beginning to think that is a good idea. I love the idea of designing one, but let's face it- I'm a little out of my league here.

Thanks for the help everyone!
 
The first one looks better. It's getting contemporary look, and getting closer to ... "Strider Saxon!"

Seriously, synthetic cord is more durable than "natural" material cord. But IMHO, if it is made to be a sword and not a knife, the handle should give more friction (like cotton, rubber, etc).
An assumption that the owner can/will maintain the condition of it, is what makes a sword separate from a very long knife.
 
It is not an impossibility to have a simple wrap material like cotton impregnated with epoxy. It's done quite a bit on some more traditional custom swords to prolong the life of the grip. And not too bad a way of going about it, even though it can be a lil rough on the hands.

As far as design...experiment and explore...ya already drew up a few ideas. I don't know the maker yer dealing with, so I couldn't tell you if he's the kind who will take an order because it's an order, or if he'll really add his input and creativity. I like the second one usually, because if I would buy something custom, I feel the maker should be happy with it. Probably why I have squat for customs (well I guess money plays a wee bitty part)

Howard:

Thanks for dropping by again, always a pleasure to hear yer input.

Shinryû.
 
Ackk! I hope you don't give up the idea of designing a sword Kumdo, that wasn't what I was trying to get you to do and I don't think Howard was either. He thought that you were simply having a sword made he didn't realize that you were trying to design one I think. Keep going for it! I have to admit that I don't care for this one to much but if you keep at it I might absolutely love the next one!
 
Thanks again everyone!

The cord warpped handle will not be epoxy coated. I learned the wrapping trick from Strider knives- in 10 years they have never had the wrap come undone. Also, the grip is REALLY strong; almost unfomfortably so. It practically bites into the hand, offering a grip that is more secure than any others I've seen. Not the most comfortable, but super "grippy".

So far, everyone seems to prefer the first design. which is cool by me, but I'm concerned that it looks like a lot of other swords out there. I reckon that this is ok, provided that the craftsmanship and small details make it stand out a bit.

The chucky serrations on the spine are an attempt at doing something a little different. I could give a BS answer about cutting ruff material or something, but the real idea is mainly cosmetic. I hate to give those up, because it will totally look like a Dawson (I was shocked to see the similarity) or others. What do you all think?
 
Thanks for the encouragement Triton. What sorts of design elements would you like to see? I know that's a loaded question, but I'd like to get some serious sword enthusiasts' input.
 
Hi Kumdo,
I understand what you're saying about your design looking a lot like others out there, but remember:
The first "rule" of good design is that form follows function.
It can't look like a katana (for example) and handle like a rapier, and vice versa.
Decide what you want it to DO.
Think about how it should be used, what kind of "feel" it should have, where it should balance etcetera, and then make it DO those things.
If it performs beautifully, it will be a beautiful design.
Let the blade be true to itself.
Oh geez, I don't believe I said something that sappy.
I'm quittin here.
You know what I mean though.
wink.gif


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I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!
 
Kumdo,

The first one is awesome and I would definately order one. I would get rid of the spine notches, however. Also, none of the one piece swords on the market today(i.e. Black winds katana and such) have a tsuba. I think it would be awesome if you offered the sword with a square tsuba, maybe brass, like Ted uses on some of his bowies. How about handle material choices? That sword would look sweet with G-10 scales or wood. Just some ideas.

------------------

Louis Buccellato
http://www.themartialway.com
Knives, Weapons and equipment. Best prices anywhere.
-------------

"only the paranoid will survive"
 
It's good that the synthetic cord was chosen for grip, and not for durability. I fear your design flows to uniqueness for the cost of functionality. Resembling "other" swords in shape shoudl be the last thing to care. In the long history of battles with edged weapons, only efficient styles survived, others just disappeared when the owner died... Modern technology will give you better choice I hope. Like, thinning here, digging there on the blade for best weight balance, and patching carbon fiber plate into the places. It may get less simple, but work better, and give it more unique look. Just my humble opinion. You can do it in better ways!

------------------
(T_T) ...crying
\(^o^)/ ...cheerful
(ToT) ...crying
Mizutani Satoshi
 
Louis, Thanks for the ideas. I couldn't find any examples of Ted's square "tsuba" on his bowies. Are you thinking about the kind he uses on the Shasqua?:
shasqclose.jpg


I love the antiqued look of the brass guard, but don't think this qualifies as a tsuba. I am going to look into either cast or machined guards, to get an idea of price today. From there, I will start playing with designs. I'll keep you posted as this unfolds.

Wrongfriend: Thanks for the thoughts. I like your ideas of how to perfectly balance the sword, but don't think it is going to be feasable with this project. As far as the cord wrap not being durable, I'm don't agree wth you. Micarta, wood or steel scales certainly would last longer, but this stuff won't rot or degrade, and would definitely outlast cotton or silk.

Keep 'em coming, friends! I'm learning a lot!
 
Kumdo,

Sorry for the confusion in my post. What I meant was, make a square tsuba, using the brass that Ted uses on his bowies. If you can throw a square brass tsuba on at least one of them, I will buy it. Have you any idea of what the price range will be?

------------------

Louis Buccellato
http://www.themartialway.com
Knives, Weapons and equipment. Best prices anywhere.
-------------

"only the paranoid will survive"
 
Still working on ideas about tsuba/guards. If things work out, you may just have your way. My main concern is brass. I'm not sure about it's asthetics/workability with the current design. I can't really say what the price will be- probably in the same ball park as MMHW's higher-end, mid-sized swords. More info as I get it...
 
Kumdo,

If it's not brass, that's fine. Stainless would probably look even nicer with the black finish. Even if it is black like the rest of the sword. As long as it is a square tsuba.

------------------

Louis Buccellato
http://www.themartialway.com
Knives, Weapons and equipment. Best prices anywhere.
-------------

"only the paranoid will survive"
 
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