Destroying then Resurrecting a Serrated Edge (VID)

[dericdesmond]

See, its not so hard to fix serrations.
[youtube]1_8hcCnzaOk[/youtube]
[youtube]SAs8umcDJOU[/youtube]

 

[shecky]

Nice vids.

 

[dericdesmond]

thanks Shecky!

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

Nifty! I tell folks who have traditional stones the just sharpen the interior of the serrations by matching the factory angle and using the edge of their stone. It's really that simple. I still prefer plain edge though.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

What a piece of junk!

It didn't even cut through the metal bar!!!

 

[shecky]

Nifty! I tell folks who have traditional stones the just sharpen the interior of the serrations by matching the factory angle and using the edge of their stone. It's really that simple. I still prefer plain edge though.

This is what I did before I really refined my method. The edge of my preferred stone was a bit jagged, so I radiused the corner by lapping it against a cinderblock, then a red clay brick. It did take some effort, but produced a nice smooth rounded edge to use on serrations.

What a piece of junk!

It didn't even cut through the metal bar!!!

That's crappy Chinese Byrd steel for ya!



I'd add, serrated edges really aren't the bad guy they're made out to be by some folks. Over the past couple years, I've come to like them quite a bit, after writing them off for a long time, mostly because i never gave them an honest chance. I'm liking a Byrd Slipit these days, with the pocketclip setup to prefer the serrated blade. As you demonstrate, serrations have the tendency to preserve some cutting edge even under difficult conditions. Sawing a steel bar with a plain blade would likely kill it in one pass.

I like the setup you have, very similar to mine: belt sander and buffing wheel. I find the buffing wheel alone to be fantastic for sharpening serrated and plain edges, unless the blade is damaged by doing things like sawing into a steel bar. In that case, I crank up the sander. Even in the field without power tools, a simple, inexpensive diamond rod does serrations quite well. I don't have a Sharpmaker, but I do have a couple medium triangular Sharpmaker stones. They were inexpensive, and they are also pretty good for doing serrations freehand.

There are a few exceptions with serrated blades. Cold Steel's teeny serrations are more difficult to do on a buffing wheel, or even most rod sharpeners. I do have a diamond needle file that will do in a pinch, but it's a bit coarse for my liking. I've had best success using a cardboard disk about 2-3" in diameter made from a cake box, and mounted on a Dremel mandrel, using tripoli buffing compound.

 

[dericdesmond]

Sawing a steel bar with a plain blade would likely kill it in one pass.

Oh it does,though we gave it a few more passes just to make sure it is indeed fubar, in the process of uploading that vid

 

[dericdesmond]

here is part 1 for the Plain Edge
[youtube]VeIKuDsNWZY[/youtube]
and part 2
[youtube]lwB3TYvTaP8[/youtube]

 

[mbhanzo]

Nifty! I tell folks who have traditional stones the just sharpen the interior of the serrations by matching the factory angle and using the edge of their stone. It's really that simple. I still prefer plain edge though.

No way.. It's not that simple.. This method would surely ruin knives and ruin them quickly. If one went to the pains of actualy carving the stone to match the enterior grind of the serrated knife they were sharpening then it could work but this would be a huge pain in the ass and a waste of time given other much more proven methods..

 

[mbhanzo]

Oh it does,though we gave it a few more passes just to make sure it is indeed fubar, in the process of uploading that vid

The plain edge actually cut better once it was dented and mashed a bit.. It helped saw the materials being cut.. Plain edge knives are best for some uses but they can easily be rendered useless in a hurry...

 

[mbhanzo]

What a piece of junk!

It didn't even cut through the metal bar!!!

We didnt have enough time

 

[hardheart]

No way.. It's not that simple.. This method would surely ruin knives and ruin them quickly. If one went to the pains of actualy carving the stone to match the enterior grind of the serrated knife they were sharpening then it could work but this would be a huge pain in the ass and a waste of time given other much more proven methods..

No, the corners of the sharpmaker rod work this way. All you need is a stone with a clean corner, it will operate in the same manner.

 

[bgentry]

Someone else posted the plain edge video the other day in another message and I watched it. Then I watched the second part and the two videos on the serrated edge as well.

Comments in no particular order:

I haven't seen a knife shop like that one in nearly 20 years. That is awesome. I would love to visit a store like that! The idea of these two "tests" was very good. Reminds me of some torture tests they do on Glocks... except you can't sharpen a Glock. But I think you know what I mean.

On the plain edge, it's obvious that he brought the edge back relatively quickly, but some things about the technique confuse me. I understand that stage one was just removing a bunch of metal so he could get the chips out. I understand the progression from grit to grit, but how did he determine when to switch? I never saw him touch the edge between grits. I thought you needed to raise a burr on *both* sides with each grit, or you hadn't gotten all the way to the edge.

It's obvious that his technique works though, as it returned to shaving sharpness. I couldn't feel it myself so I don't know if it was "pulling hair" or "popping hair", but it darn sure took off a lot quickly, so it seemed very sharp on video.

I *almost* missed that he put a micro-bevel on it with the sharpmaker. I assume that's what that step was.

Stropping: He used much more speed and force than I would have expected. Again, it worked, so maybe I'm babying my blades a bit too much during stropping.

Oh, my final quibble on the plain edge video: Why the dunk tank of oil? I thought diamond hones could be used dry or with water and that oil (and even water) slowed down the grinding process. Maybe this is just a convenience thing so he never has to clean a loaded hone? ...and from the notes in the video that oil tank and holders were free so...

On the serrated video:

I think you two had two points to make:

1. Serrated edges last longer, period.
2. Serrated edges are just as easy to sharpen as plain.

I have to say that seeing this convinced me of #1. At least good serrated edges. Bust out your Ginsu 2000s and I think the story will be different. But you were comparing like knives from the same manufacturer, so it was a very fair comparison IMHO.

But (you knew the but was coming right?), I think you failed on #2 badly. First, the technique wasn't explained at all (at least that I could hear over the noise of the grinder and belt sander), and using specialty power tools is hardly "just as easy as a plain edge". Sure, if you've got the shop, got the equipment, and got the technique. But that's hardly a fair comparison IMHO. Sharpen the damaged serrated blade with relatively inexpensive hand tools and I'll be a believer.

I was excited when he started to explain the common mistakes made when sharpening serrations because I've done some of them myself while trying to make a cheap bread knife sharper. But then there was nothing to follow up other than "use power tools like this".

He seemed to really know what he was talking about, and I'll bet if asked he could explain his power tool technique. I just didn't get that from the video and again, I wanted to see it done by hand.

Finally, I LOVE that you had Conan playing on some DVD player in the background. Great backdrop for a knife store and these videos you made!

I hope this doesn't seem overly critical. I enjoyed all of the videos, they just left me with some questions and wanting more.

Brian.

 

[Jason B.]

I'll add that diamond stones are NOT to be used with oil (read the directions) but with water or soapy water. The technique is OK and worked but still needs some improvement, when you use a sharpmaker you still need to follow the curve of the edge, something he did not do.

With a serrated edge it would be better to flat grind the back side instead of using a secondary bevel and taking off a excessive amount of the teeth.

 

[hardheart]

There's only one burr at the edge, not on the sides. It is only necessary to raise it on one side if you don't worry about keeping your bevels perfectly even.

I wouldn't worry about the lamp oil at all, it's just clean burning kerosene, and isn't going to hurt the diamond plates.

I thought he followed the belly ok on the sharpmaker, but seemed to miss it on the strop on most of the passes. Hard to tell from video at that angle.

 

[mbhanzo]

No, the corners of the sharpmaker rod work this way. All you need is a stone with a clean corner, it will operate in the same manner.

I understand what you are saying but I disagree. I've used the sharpmaker and all of the various shaped other ceramic stones available and I've learned that you will do no good trying to sharpen inside the factory grinds. There is no way anyone can perfectly match the angles and the angles will be altered.
By back bevel sharpening a serrated blade you restore the original grinds rather than trying to recreate them.

 

[mbhanzo]

Someone else posted the plain edge video the other day in another message and I watched it. Then I watched the second part and the two videos on the serrated edge as well.

Comments in no particular order:

I haven't seen a knife shop like that one in nearly 20 years. That is awesome. I would love to visit a store like that! The idea of these two "tests" was very good. Reminds me of some torture tests they do on Glocks... except you can't sharpen a Glock. But I think you know what I mean.

On the plain edge, it's obvious that he brought the edge back relatively quickly, but some things about the technique confuse me. I understand that stage one was just removing a bunch of metal so he could get the chips out. I understand the progression from grit to grit, but how did he determine when to switch? I never saw him touch the edge between grits. I thought you needed to raise a burr on *both* sides with each grit, or you hadn't gotten all the way to the edge.

It's obvious that his technique works though, as it returned to shaving sharpness. I couldn't feel it myself so I don't know if it was "pulling hair" or "popping hair", but it darn sure took off a lot quickly, so it seemed very sharp on video.

I *almost* missed that he put a micro-bevel on it with the sharpmaker. I assume that's what that step was.

Stropping: He used much more speed and force than I would have expected. Again, it worked, so maybe I'm babying my blades a bit too much during stropping.

Oh, my final quibble on the plain edge video: Why the dunk tank of oil? I thought diamond hones could be used dry or with water and that oil (and even water) slowed down the grinding process. Maybe this is just a convenience thing so he never has to clean a loaded hone? ...and from the notes in the video that oil tank and holders were free so...

On the serrated video:

I think you two had two points to make:

1. Serrated edges last longer, period.
2. Serrated edges are just as easy to sharpen as plain.

I have to say that seeing this convinced me of #1. At least good serrated edges. Bust out your Ginsu 2000s and I think the story will be different. But you were comparing like knives from the same manufacturer, so it was a very fair comparison IMHO.

But (you knew the but was coming right?), I think you failed on #2 badly. First, the technique wasn't explained at all (at least that I could hear over the noise of the grinder and belt sander), and using specialty power tools is hardly "just as easy as a plain edge". Sure, if you've got the shop, got the equipment, and got the technique. But that's hardly a fair comparison IMHO. Sharpen the damaged serrated blade with relatively inexpensive hand tools and I'll be a believer.

I was excited when he started to explain the common mistakes made when sharpening serrations because I've done some of them myself while trying to make a cheap bread knife sharper. But then there was nothing to follow up other than "use power tools like this".

He seemed to really know what he was talking about, and I'll bet if asked he could explain his power tool technique. I just didn't get that from the video and again, I wanted to see it done by hand.

Finally, I LOVE that you had Conan playing on some DVD player in the background. Great backdrop for a knife store and these videos you made!

I hope this doesn't seem overly critical. I enjoyed all of the videos, they just left me with some questions and wanting more.

Brian.

Hey Brian,

If youre ever near Ft. Wayne, IN please stop in and I'll give you a tour of the shop and show you a selection of sharp and pointy objects that will surely bring a tear or two to your eyes.

You did get the point of the video on serrated knives. They do indeed cut longer and more aggresively that a plain edge knife especially under severe abuse. I ground the serrated blade on the belt sander only to save a bit of time. I sharpened the plain edge by hand just to show it could be done.. I could have done both of them either way and still had the same result.. The grinder and buffer only save a bit of time and wear and tear on me.

I'm glad you enjoyed the videos bro.. More to come..

 

[bgentry]

There's only one burr at the edge, not on the sides. It is only necessary to raise it on one side if you don't worry about keeping your bevels perfectly even.

Yes the burr is part of the edge. But we call it a burr because it leans one way or the other. When I sharpen the left side of the blade, the burr appears on the right. This tells me that I have ground the left side until it met the other side.

If you only grind on one side, not only is your edge asymmetrical, you only have a flat grind on *one* side of your blade. You seem quite knowledgeable, so I think maybe my terminology confused you or something. If you don't grind both sides of the blade until you get a burr.. first on one side and the on the other... you won't even know that you have a flat grind on *both* sides of the blade that actually meets the edge.

Think of the blade as being round on both sides. Grind off the roundness on one side and get a burr. Now you have one flat side. Grind off the roundness on the other side and get a burr. Now you have two flat sides. This is the fundamental aim of sharpening.

I wouldn't worry about the lamp oil at all, it's just clean burning kerosene, and isn't going to hurt the diamond plates.

I'm not "worried". I just wonder why he does it when I've read quite a bit of advice that says "don't bother with oil. It's messy, it's unnecessary, and it makes sharpening slower."

Brian.

 

[mbhanzo]

I use it because it does keep the stone from loading
and keeps the little bits of metal in suspension and
off the surface of the stone to a degree. Its far from
messy and so far the best solution ive found.

 

[Jason B.]

I wouldn't worry about the lamp oil at all, it's just clean burning kerosene, and isn't going to hurt the diamond plates.

Then why does DMT say to use water and to never store in kerosene?