destruction test

I like noss's stuff, fun to watch, as said before, it gives you some insight in how strong a knife really is.

on my youtube channel are some videos with hard use of knives in it, here's the latest from finland (esee junglas)
[YOUTUBE]865jIoeuDPY[/YOUTUBE]

Absolutely the best Junglas review I've seen yet zyhano. Many thanks! I found myself very interested in your shelters and the warmth generated by candles, if you used tarps, space blankets or pine boughs for the floors - the melting of snow for water process and more. I wish you could have made it longer and went into detail on all of that as well.

I realize that this was a knife review though - so great job man! :thumbup: :D
 
The truth is you don't learn much of anything by breaking one knife in an unrepeatable fashion. The videos I've seen (I have no idea how anyone could watch all of these) of some big kid flailing away on a knife ain't even close to the actual testing they do on cars. Think repeatability - that is critical to real testing. If you really are interested in the scientific method, even go as far to think what is the hypothesis of the test? This is the first step in doing a test - what question are you trying to answer? When your question is not a very good or specific, your "test" might not tell you anything even if it is repeatable with good method. A test should be to answer a question in a way that can be compared to real use.

If you want a tough knife, than I say don't let some dillweed with a camcorder make your mind up for you - use your brain, assemble knives made out of tough steel (which will probably have less edge retention than some more brittle steels), with good reviews here, and throw out designs with big stress risers (sharp corners, serrations), and pick the one left you like the best. Watching someone chop wood is a better video to use in selecting a knife with this "use your brain" method of knife selection. Using your head thus will provide better results than trying to pick it by wildly wailing away on aknife with a hammer! :D
 
There's about as much merit in making a video of a destruction test as there is in owning a hundred safe queens, or complaining on the internet about one guy breaking knives or the other guy not using his. People do what they enjoy, and it is always going to piss someone off.
 
I'm in before the move too! Woohoo!
The truth is you don't learn much of anything by breaking one knife in an unrepeatable fashion. ... Think repeatability - that is critical to real testing. If you really are interested in the scientific method, even go as far to think what is the hypothesis of the test? This is the first step in doing a test - what question are you trying to answer? When your question is not a very good or specific, your "test" might not tell you anything even if it is repeatable with good method. A test should be to answer a question in a way that can be compared to real use.
Point 1: "repeatability" is NOT critical to "real testing", it is critical to production and duplication of a product, i.e. manufacture. Two identically manufactured products in a lot (or batch) should perform identically when subjected to the same stresses - if not, there is an issue with manufacture.
In testing, "repeatability" only applies to duplicating results when testing the SAME subject, which is NOT the case in the Noss 'tests'. When performing the same test on the same subject, the same result should be generated - if not, the testing method must be reviewed and improved. However, Noss never destroys the same knife twice - he selects or is given a single sample for destruction. That sample may be a unique subject or may be part of a larger batch of supposedly identical subjects. If it IS one of many, selected at random, then observed results regarding that particular sample are hypothetically representative of every product from that lot or batch - i.e. every other knife from that lot of knives would produce the same results as were obtained when subjecting that single knife to the stresses involved in the destruction, each would excel or fail in the ways that the tested sample excelled/failed.

Point 2, the hypotheses of these demonstrations is generated by popular expectation, i.e. prediction of how well/poorly a knife will perform under specific conditions of stress. A hypothesis is fundamental to scientific experimentation but NOT to testing itself. All that is necessary for "testing" is the drive to complete the process itself, whether it be fueled by curiosity ("I wonder what would happen if..."), entertainment ("Wouldn't it be fun to..."), etc. What is great about these demonstrations is how they encourage discussion as viewers theorize regarding performance of the various subjects, draw subjective and objective comparisons, and develop hypotheses for future experiments (even though few people have the means or drive to follow through on them).

Point 3, it is funny to see how often the phrase "real use" is brought up in opposition to destruction testing. First of all, the phrase is entirely subjective to the "user", and could probably be replaced with "popular use" or "expected use". Some people 'use' their knives by preserving them carefully from any stress or harm in a locked safe, others only cut arm/leg hair or envelopes or toilet paper, or soft vegetables, etc., while others use their knives cut / pry / hammer / drill / carve / chop / etc. on materials of varying properties. All of these are very "real" uses of a knife; it just so happens that certain knives are objectively better suited to the user's tasks than other knives (be it that one knife is 'prettier' or tougher or holds a better edge, etc.).
Second, the "limit testing" method employed in the most popular destruction tests (i.e. Noss) CAN be extrapolated to "real use", indeed quite easily thanks to his diligence in posting so many LONG videos of how he destroys the knives he is given.
The problems that I see people encountering include a misunderstanding of these demonstrations, particularly regarding the specific properties of the knife which are being tested. These are not sharpness tests, corrosion tests, or beauty pageants - the primary properties examined are strength and toughness (as well as ergonomics, to a degree). The subjective relevance of these tests will depend on the importance of those specific properties in regard to your personal use of the knife, the levels of stress and frequency that you encounter.
A second problem that people seem to have is penchant for hyperbole - exaggerating the 'possible' (i.e. untested) performance, strength, toughness, or indestructibility of a knife... only to watch it chip or snap unexpectedly. The core question is, what informed their expectations in the first place?


IF you are making an informed choice regarding a product/knife/tool/etc. with strength/toughness is a primary attribute, it is reckless (i.e. silly and potentially dangerous) to make your selection without knowing the stress-limits to which the item can be subjected. Ever tried to design a house without regard for load-stress limits in the pillars, beams, and joists? Don't be ridiculous. What about going rock-climbing with ropes and carabiners of unknown/untested strength? Now for most people most of the time, not knowing the stress limits of your knife will not prove immediately harmful if that knife should fail unexpectedly, since most people do not use their knives anywhere near the stress limits ...
For those that DO use their knife in stressful ways, knowledge of its limits is key, for they depend on the knife to perform and not fail when they need it. And you can only know a knife's limits by testing it to destruction. For those that sell or even recommend knives to others under the supposition that it is a "tank" able to endure "extreme use" etc., they must be prepared to justify their statement with empirical evidence. If they have not seen or themselves performed a limit test, what is the basis for their statement? Is it mere hyperbole?


My recommendation: If you are looking for a knife with specific uses in mind, search for empirical evidence regarding the performance of knives under those specific conditions. If you intend to carve wood with the knife, search for photos/videos of people using it or something similar to carve wood. If you are interested in information regarding the stress limits of a given knife, search for empirical evidence of that. Take NO ONE'S word unless you know them and find them trustworthy or are not concerned about the results should their recommendation fail you.
 
I like the Noss vids and others like them,the videos helped buying some esee/rat knives alot easier, as a result had I not seen the video I MAY have settled for alot lesser and probably cheaper (moneywise) knife , I may have been happy to save a few $ but sometimes their are more important factors.One of the items that I wish that Noss' video would do though is to state possibly in a general way that the knife that is being used is made with such and such type of steel(say 1095 or 5160) and that generally speaking it's intended for applications where toughness is a plus,or let's say s90v where edge retention is the priority etc.....also I dont feel like car/knife analogy is a great one, maybe the manufacturers should post results of their crash tests to those that want to see them and if you want to crash your car into a brick wall to see the results and you've paid for the car more power to you, but the car is generally not advertised as a" survival"car ,additionally it is infinitely more complex and therefore probably more delicate than a survival knife.I feel that alot of people know to take these videos with a grain of salt ,they are not the final say.Finally nobody forces the viewer to purchase a knife that does well or otherwise on the test, for that matter I don't recall Noss even making a recommendation on the knives he tests.
 
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There's about as much merit in making a video of a destruction test as there is in owning a hundred safe queens, or complaining on the internet about one guy breaking knives or the other guy not using his. People do what they enjoy, and it is always going to piss someone off.

+1 You are a wise man hardheart! ;)
 
Most car companies do make crash tests - because crashes happen in real life. So it is important to make everything possible to reduce the impact for the driver and passengers...
I think nobody is absolutely safe in a car. Even if you an exelent and a very careful driver, you are not guaranteed from meeting a drank freak on the road...
So the car manufacturers are prepared to go a long way to make the test to the degree and in fashion similar to real life situation. They do not through it from the top of a skyscraper or drop a mountain on it - just for fun. These tests are carefully designed and results evaluated - so they are relevant to real life situation.
For some reason I can not imagine myself abusing a knife anywhere even close to the limits demonstrated in these knife destruction tests. And in particular in a survival situation - when my life would depend on it. So for me there is a zero value in these tests. They are irrelevant.
And I really have a difficulty to understand what could be the motivation for doing anything like that. And there certainly should be some serious motivation for going through all that trouble. Is it from boredom, a sort of entertainment? Or looking for some attention and recognition? What is it really about? That is usually a pazzle that I am pondering on if I meet a thead obout that kind of "test"...
 
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Most car companies do make crash tests - because crashes happen in real life. So it is important to make everything possible to reduce the impact for the driver and passengers...

...So the car manufacturers are prepared to go a long way to make the test to the degree and in fashion similar to real life situation... These tests are carefully designed and results evaluated - so they are relevant to real life situation.
For some reason I can not imagine myself abusing a knife anywhere even close to the limits demonstrated in these knife destruction tests. And in particular in a survival situation - when my life would depend on it. So for me there is a zero value in these tests. They are irrelevant.
And I really have a difficulty to understand what could be the motivation for doing anything like that. And there certainly should be some serious motivation for going through all that trouble...
What is it really about? That is usually a pazzle that I am pondering on if I meet a thead obout that kind of "test"...

You can search threads and the name noss4, and there is also a separate forum attached to the Noss knife tests.
But here is one post and another and also a thread mentioned in that second post (start at #16 and try to focus on those from effer and chiral.grolim, myself, if I may humbly recommend it) which may help to elucidate for you what my personal take (in favor) is on these types of demonstrations. Now, my justification for them may not suit the notions of others in favor or against, it is only my own, but I do hope that it will give you some understanding of the context in which these tests are viewed by those of us tending toward the analytical ;)

Again, I understand that some people don't like the "tests" while others do. Just let us all remember that your preference is subjective to your own purposes. What is subjectively irrelevant to you is not objectively irrelevant. Indeed, all objective information is relevant in regard to the object itself. :)
 
If the videos are done well and the hard use tests are actually done tastefully then I like them and use the information. If someone gets ridiculous and either puts a knife thru use that it was never designed to see or takes it to the point of destruction just "because" then it's nothing more than entertainment.

I'm not embarrassed to say that a few hard use videos have swayed me to purchase a knife or two that I was on the fence about.

I like everything and anything about knives - I spend way too much time on the computer watching videos and lurking on the forums - so to me it's all good - even if it's bad.

After many years of reading way too many posts and watching way too many videos the one conclusion I came to is that opinions vary widely, no matter how information is presented.

My hats off to those that actually take the time to make and post videos (good or bad) - it's something I never seem to have the time to do.
 
Absolutely the best Junglas review I've seen yet zyhano. Many thanks! I found myself very interested in your shelters and the warmth generated by candles, if you used tarps, space blankets or pine boughs for the floors - the melting of snow for water process and more. I wish you could have made it longer and went into detail on all of that as well.

I realize that this was a knife review though - so great job man! :thumbup: :D
thanks cziv, much appreciated, I only have so much space on my videocam to record stuff, else I might just have done more on the shelter building etc.

People do what they enjoy, and it is always going to piss someone off.
yes, very true, I absolutely know what you mean :)
 
Erg mooie review van een prachtig mes! Heb gisteren de Esee 4 besteld. Nu nog een mooie survival lokatie vinden. Weet jij niet een mooie locatie in de buurt van Nederland?

Groet,

Ruud
 
Erg mooie review van een prachtig mes! Heb gisteren de Esee 4 besteld. Nu nog een mooie survival lokatie vinden. Weet jij niet een mooie locatie in de buurt van Nederland?

Groet,

Ruud

What? You sound like you've got peanut butter in your keyboard. :confused:
 
There's about as much merit in making a video of a destruction test as there is in owning a hundred safe queens, or complaining on the internet about one guy breaking knives or the other guy not using his. People do what they enjoy, and it is always going to piss someone off.

On your first point, you are correct if you enjoy tightening a knife in a vice and wailing away on it with a steel hammer just as much as you enjoy taking one of your finely crafted knives out of the safe and admiring the workmanship while you put are buffing out a whispery thin coat of Ren wax on it. I much prefer the latter, and have found it works out better on the knife budget than destructive testing on one knife.

You're definitely right about always pissing some people off. I've found that one sure way to get some people pissed off (and get others to post sarcastic and petulant posts in reply) is to occasionally post in a thread about destructive testing the seemingly obvious fact (at least on the ASME & ASTM forum:D) that watching a video showing one test specimen being destroyed using uncontrolled and unmeasured impact energies, at randomly varying impact locations, from inconsistent and ever-changing impact directions, is a REALLY POOR and inconsistent method to compare the strength or the toughness of rectangular wedge shaped steel specimens (of varying dimensions).

If you want to use the videos in attempt to compare which knife you think is strongest or the toughest, I say go for it and good luck. :thumbup:
 
I like Noss4's tests because at least on this forum ppl like to pretend that whatever knife they like is at least as strong as any other knife if not completely indestructible and then when Noss4 shows them that anything can break they get really mad and start making threads about how the tests don't meet the same scientific criteria for validation as their purely fantasy beliefs about their knife's abilities that they held before Noss4 broke their blade.
 
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Erg mooie review van een prachtig mes! Heb gisteren de Esee 4 besteld. Nu nog een mooie survival lokatie vinden. Weet jij niet een mooie locatie in de buurt van Nederland?

Groet,

Ruud

Here you go, with my modicum of Dutch:

Very nice review of a wonderful knife! Yesterday I ordered the Esee 4. Now I need to find a good survival location (Ed: to try it out, presumably). Do you know of a nice location near the Netherlands?

- Mark
 
i dunno , i understand it is a destruction test, thats the goal is to destroy the knife,i find it interesting that at the same step of the test, many cheaper costing knives ,no edge rolling or ill effects,i`m not saying good or bad i`m saying interesting, without any sort of reference to which other knives the recon unit tested,this test can give you an idea,further more its a fact , that there is no standard issue knife for the U.S. Marine Corp Force Recon ,again ,not good or bad just interesting,one more interesting,Training Unit, after the days drills etc its back to base,and the mess hall . not trying to start anything,just my observations,seems like a gamble to me for that price,although my friends like em a lot,love the noss videos
 
i dunno , i understand it is a destruction test, thats the goal is to destroy the knife,i find it interesting that at the same step of the test, many cheaper costing knives ,no edge rolling or ill effects,i`m not saying good or bad i`m saying interesting, without any sort of reference to which other knives the recon unit tested,this test can give you an idea,further more its a fact , that there is no standard issue knife for the U.S. Marine Corp Force Recon ,again ,not good or bad just interesting,one more interesting,Training Unit, after the days drills etc its back to base,and the mess hall . not trying to start anything,just my observations,seems like a gamble to me for that price,although my friends like em a lot,love the noss videos

What?
Seriously, with the astounding lack of grammar and proper punctuation, I have no clue what the heck you are talking about.
 
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