Dialogue needed: Mass vs Technology

Sal Glesser

Sal Glesser

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Through several dialogues on the forums, I have noticed that there are those that like some mass in their knive and some that do not. I would like to share some thoughts on the question and invite the opinions of the fine minds hangin' out here.

When I was younger, I learned that mass had value in things that did not move (home), or moved in only one direction (flywheel). With things that moved, mass became, in most cases an obstacle as the effort to move the greater mass was generally less efficient than moving less mass. I have thought that way in design.

The most important thing about a knife is that you have it with you (on your person) when you need it. With that in mind, the knife that is the least burden to have with you would have greater value than a knife that created a greater burden when carrying.

The 2nd most important thing about a knife is that it delivers the most possible performance when you do need it. If you carry it to cut and it doesn't, then the carrying becomes wasted engery.

Compromise is an amazing concept and within it lies all of the variation between that "knife which weighs nothing and cuts nothing" and the "knife that weighs 4 lbs and mows down trees.

Add in aesthetics, cost, competition and niches, etc and the variation grows.

One of the reasons this question came up is another thread discussing wire clips.

How much performance are you willing to give up to have something that looks good? Considering the experience of using a knife is personal and focused (unless you are sharing with a friend), would you make the same choice if no one else would ever see the knife?

If a design feature "looked" unappealing, but actually performed better, which way would you lean?

If you were accustomed to a little mass, and the ideal product came along that had everything to extreme, but lacked the mass, would you still purchase it?

Keep in mind that we make hi mass models, such as the stailess variations so we recongnize the need/desire. In a balisong, mass has function in the swing, which requires a certain amount of mass.

Which is your preference and why? A healthy dialog might uncover some truths?

sal
 
Dear sir,Some great points you have made there,My personnel veiw is that i like to have a bit of maas on my hip,But it also has to pack a bite.If i carry a knife i like to know that i am carrying the said artical,I's ok to have something that weighs nothing in your pocket but not for me.Some good mass pleanty of bite who could want more:D
 
Interesting question.

For large fixed blade knives I like some heft. When used for chopping, general camp and trail tasks it's important.

For the Spyderco's I own, the less mass the better within the constraints that I want the handle to fit my hand, the blade, handle and lock to be very stiff and strong, etc. I'm currently carrying a Lil Temp and would be happy if it weighed less but not if the handle was less comfortable, the lock less secure, etc.

I will say that I'll trade looks for function in a knife but I'm not sure that my buying patterns back that up. The problem a vendor in any field has when you stray too far from the expected is educating the customer that this new design is an improvement, not just a fad or a designer's ego run amok. For you this has become even more important because I (and I would assume many others) now do much of my knife shopping and buying on the internet without actually touching a product until I've purchased it. You could have the best engineered product on earth but if it looks strange and different you need to commit to some evangelizing in order to sell it.

Thanks for your active participation with your customers, by the way. Your frankness has made me look for the Spyderco version of a product before I'm forced to buy elsewhere if you're not making it.

WWill
 
At home I like the lightweight. I get home and I want to relax. So I'll grab a FRN delica and clip it on. Outside though...I don't mind a little mass. In fact, sometimes weight just feels better than little weight. It feels like more quality and nicer in the hand.

For the question of looks: I care a little about looks. I don't want something to look butt ugly. But I like how Spyderco provides the balance between performance and looks. It leans heavily towards performance...but does not shun looks altogether. This is the way I like it.

For wireclips: I just don't know. I have never handled one. I think they look fine, but others oppinions of them holding too-tight have made me think twice about them. The clip's now seem to hold fine and are easy to put back on your pants with one hand.

So I like a little mass. It doesn't have to weigh as much as a S.S. model, but the weight of the FRN Native is good. I think spyderco does fine in the looks department without throwing away performance for it. And I'm on the fence about wire clips. If I could buy the "ideal knife" yet it lacked mass...you better beleive I would buy it! Mass is an issue to an extent...but dismissing something because of it's lack of mass would be foolish. Hope that helps Sal.
-Kevin
 
If I want mass I will get a fixed blade, spyderco is perfect with the heft of thier knife being mostly in the blade.

as to the wire clip I dislike them, for being to tight and also the fact that with the center hollowed out like it is I find they get hung up on the rivet in my jeans if I am not paying attention when putting them back in my pocket. I like the classic clip from spyderco.
 
Mass seems in most cases to be a element of function, and the adage "form follows function" remains relevant in design. Although a 2" folding machete might appear novel and curious in a museum of minatures, it would have no functional application in a jungle setting. Within the perameters of form and function lie the creative possibilites for design. While a " Civilian" or "HawkBill" might look interesting if their tips ultimately curved upwards, back toward the handle, they would be less than useful as "rippers". However. one CAN design a massive "peak" above the hole that is used to open your folding "Gunting", to provide a thumb purchase for control, and "form follows function." Yet the appearance of the "Gunting" is quite unique and unusual. The massive characteristics of the "Chinook" lend itself to heavey duty applications.
Esthetic appeal is a "horse of a different color" as they say in "OZ"....I would bet, Sal, that often in deciding on a particular design for production, it must seem a bit like a gamble. My first SPYDERCO was a ENDURA: before I purchased it, for the longest time, I thought it "ugly". However after I employed that particuler folder for several weeks it evolved , in my eyes, into a "prince". Conversly I was smitten at first glance by the looks of the "VESUVIUS" with the inlay handle....but ultimately decided to pass on it based on user feedback. Consumers are fickle and yet practical. What you may have considered to be some of SPYDECO'S both most inovative and functional
models.... may perhaps have never been a commercial success.
I imagine in your attempts to appeal to the "mass"es you design your kives to be unique, affordable, durable, and above all funcitional. Most SPYDERCO knife buyers ultimately want your knives to perform and not sit idle inside a display case. I think those expectitions are a tribute because SPYDERCO has a reputation for delivering on all accounts.
 
I like a little "heft" to a knife, especially in the handle. I like it when a blade feels like it's going to stay in my hand. It doesn't have to have the weight of some of the SS models (I own a G-10 Police) but the smaller FRN models, especially the smaller ones, often feel a little light in the hand.

As for Technology, bring it on! I understand that a lot of "high-tech" materials are renowned for their light weight, thus this thread. But any design or mechanical innovations your willing to produce, I'm willing to look at!

Lunumbra
 
Since mass deterimes function...I need a house to provie me with a solid, permenent structure, yet I ALSO need a vehicle to provide me with mobility. In like manner I use mt NATIVE for pocket tasks and reach for my MORAN when I want to skin a deer. The need for different masses for different applications result in the need for ownership of more than one item to provde appropriate function. This result is: multiple purchases for the consumer and multiple sales for the manufacturer.
 
Another thought in the abstract is that a decient amount of mass (not over the top), was a sign of quality. Take the solid brass ornament compaired to the brass coloured thin sheet metal ornament, both would look the same, but the first sign of quality (but not the only one) would be to pick it up to see how solid it was.

For a craft knife I would value lightness over quality of the blade. Light to make very fine and precise cuts

Although when it comes to EDC knives like folders I'm one of those that prefers mass, the feel of something solid and substantial in the hand, but that doesn't neccessarily mean heavy.
With I slightly heavier handle the weight acts as a constant reminder that I have a tool that should be respected in my hand.

I do feel that the basic FRN handles (Delica, Endura, Calypso Jnr) are too light for my preference, although the FRN handles with steel liners and/or steel back spacers (Vesuvious, Meerkat) are very good and have suited me well.
I also think that the heavily textured patterns like those found on the Delica and Endura FRN handles also add to the impression of extreme lightness, almost making the handle feel hollow, and dare I say cheep.
Although I am often a steel snob, I will often sacrifice a certain amount of quality on the blade steel in order to get more of a balance with the handle, often searching out older models like the G-10 Standard, Rookie, Native or Navigator. The only time I have totaly sacrificed my requirement for a handle with heft was the Calypso Jnr Lwt, there was so much right with the other aspects of that knife that it overcame my normal minimum standard for handles.

Like you say Sal, Spyderco does offer stainless steel handles for those that prefer a handle with mass, althouth this is nearly always acompanied by a minimum standard of blade steel. I can understand this to an extent as I also tend to keep my SS knives for fine use and "gentleman wear", but this can be a little frustrating when the handles and blades are at such opposite ends of the scale. The number of times I have longed for a knife were the handle and blade where the quality of each was near the centre of the quality scale.

I think that some of the more unjust critisms of Spyderco knives have come about through the FRN handle series. To people who are unfamiliar with FRN they often seem cheep because they are so much lighter than other "quality" brands and they can't believe that a handle that light could stand up to heavy use.
We are in an unusual time, whereas before mass meant solid construction, with better researched and developed materials that doesn't neccessarily hold true, but until those preconceptions have worn down there will always be some resistance to FRN handles, even from those that prefer a lighter knife.

Another reason why I have a personal preference against FRN is that when clipped to the pocket it is only marginally lighter than G-10, but feels substantially wider when you try putting you hand in you pocket to get something else.
 
I like my knives to have good balance. If a knife is blade-heavy, this is a problem. Same for the handle (although small handles in general are not appealing). Every time I pick up my Merlin, it feels too small in my hand. The Endura handle used on my SpyderHawk, however, just works fine. Material is of some concern. I really like the heft and feel of G-10 and carbon fiber with a liner. The chunky handles used on the Lil Temperence and Salsa are not quite right in my hand. I'd have to agree with Yog about the "Feel" of heft = quality, as well.
 
Ever notice that the Baseball has nearly the perfect mass to be thrown, any lighter and it hurts to throw, and heavier and performance is compromised, knives are the same way.

My favorite knives have: hand filling handles, lock, pivot and handle rigidity, ergonomics designed for retention, and powerfuly shaped blades. I also value a folder than can go above and beyond the call of duty and these attributes often come in a more massive knife.
 
Sal-

It was stated earlier on this thread, but I also feel the same, so I'll restate it.

Mass and knives. Mass is one of a blade's best friends, along with force (and gravity). However, I make a distinction when it comes to folders, in that in my mind they are designed to be convinient, mobile, and to be unnoticed. If you want a knife to chop with and do outdoorsy things with, then get a fixed blade, axe, or saw. A pocketknife is not meant to cut down trees with a glance, nor should it be expected to because that is not the nature of the beast. To begin with, it lives with a length restriction, as it can get pretty tough to fit a 7" folder in your pocket (yumm...7" Milie...arggghh), and it also has to live with a weight cap. Too heavy and it loses most of the qualities that make it a folding pocketknife. According to my definitions of one, in any case.

yog made an interesting point when he said that it used to be that mass=quality, and how with new materials this is no longer the case. I had never made this connection before, and it illuminates several unconscious patterns that I have. Pocketknives are in their ascendency, and that is one of the main reasons.

I bought a SS Police a few months back, simply because I both a) wanted a Police model and b) had not had a SS handle before, and the SS was cheaper in this case than any other handle option. I regret that purchase now, mainly because of the additional weight that the SS brings to the table. Not that it doesn't go through an EDC rotation, but it has lost many of the properties that I think of as inherent in a pocketknife.

I'm using the term pocketknife quite a bit, and for a reason. When I think of a pocketknife, I think of a light either single or multi, slip or locking blade. When I think of an EDC, I think of it in terms more liking that of carrying a firearm, where weight is the first thing to be traded for other benefits. EDC has more of a tactical flavor in my mind that does "pocketknife".

As for the original question, to quote sal: "If you were accustomed to a little mass, and the ideal product came along that had everything to extreme, but lacked the mass, would you still purchase it?"

This to me is not something to be ashmaed of or something to consider a tradeoff, but a goal to be obtained. A case in point to me is my G10 Milie, which every time I pick it up I am amazed at how light it is. If I've rambled on a bit, I apologize, but I would rather belabor my point than fail to make it.

AB

A knife is more than a blade.
 
Sal:

I have no problems sacrificing looks for function. I may be unique in that.
As for mass, as in politics- perception can be more important than fact. I know for certain that the manufacturer of a major brand drill-motor has added lead weights inside the all-plastic housing to make the tool ‘feel’ more substantial.

If you could skeletonize the blade and handle of a Delica, it would weigh half as much and cut just as well. But would it still sell? I don’t know.

Darrel
 
Here are my thoughts that have evolved over almost the last ten years that I've been buying Spyderco knives.

-My current favorites are the Carbon Fiber Police and Delica. They seem to have the perfect balance of weight/heft and solidity for me.

-I find the stainless models too heavy and slippery feeling handles.

-The Military is way too light for me. I have read and re-read every thread posted on its' lock strength. As stated above, "perception is reality". It feels too light for such a massive blade to me. I have had three and gotten rid of them.

-I like the Endura. In relation to the other threads on this subject, I now understand that liners are not only unnecessary in these FRN handled knives, but would put them out of the market price-wise to compete with other lightweight models. That being said, I do like the thicker FRN of the old molded clip models. That would be a satisfactory compromise for me. I like the new volcano grip pattern. I whirl my Endura trainer around like mad, without ever losing my grip on the knife.

-I have to say that no matter the logic, I like the solid clips and dislike the wire clips. I am willing to carry the extra weight and put up with them scratching the furniture, rather than have those ugly wire clips on my knives.

-Gunting and Lil' Temperance: I like the large handle/3" blade concept alot. I have a Temperance fixed blade trainer. I have no trouble carrying it under just a t-shirt. I will also be replacing my Chinook. It's a heavy SOB, but I don't think anything short of dropping an anvil on it will break it.

-In summary, to me a certain heft is necessary to avoid the knife 'feeling cheap' to me. I am willing to carry a little extra weight. I am concerned about the clip looking a certain way: you know the classic three-screw clip that Spyderco engineered ?

Bob Kasper once said in an article in Tactical Knives, that he gets asked all the time, "what is the best knife to carry in gym shorts other than a neck knife?". His reply was simple. He said, he didn't know because "I never wear gym shorts as they don't support my mode of carry". I think that sums it up pretty well. If you want to carry a Chinook, put on a belt. If you're gonna go around in gym shorts, get one of the FRN models. There is a place for each.

Thanks for letting us summarize in this thread Sal. BTW, I look forward to meeting everyone at the Blade Show next month! Woo hoo!

Leo Gilbert
 
You probably recall that I'm an advocate of "Formula 1" knifemaking: Weight is the enemy. Seek the minimum possible weight that meets the specified strength requirements of the intended application. The simplest and most elegant engineering solution, even if it is more difficult to implement. etc. etc. :cool:

I even switched from a Ti Salsa to an Al Salsa because the Al one weighed 0.8oz less.

The only thing I rate as important as weight is form-factor/ergos. For example I prefer the Assist to the Rescue even though the former weighs a bit more.

I'm probably an extreme example, yet even the extremists needed to get a vote in. ;)
 
I also remember James Keating, when asked about the weight of the Chinook, saying something to the effect that "real weapons (guns, knives, swords) are heavy". 'Nuff said. I'll go along with that.

Leo G. :D
 
I like a solid feel but don't usually feel the need for a lot of mass. The only Spyderco that I thought felt to light was the FRN Walker. The handle felt a little flimsy and the handle wasn't heavy enough to balance the blade. FRN Delica's seem okay although I will admit that I like the CF version better. I don't think it's the mass just the feeling of solidity. In other words, I don't like handles that give too much.
 
A pocket knife's weight is irrelevant. What I look for is good ergonomics, good materials, and an attractive design. A folding knife is a mechanical device, the mechanism needs to work, and I will not buy a knife that has metal bearing surfaces moving directly against plastic components. Worry about building it right and let it weigh what it has to weigh.

n2s
 
I didn't read all the posts but, the ideal folder would:

(1) have a good super sharp steel with great edge holding qualities. Doesn't matter if it's thick or thin - as long as it's strong and won't break even in robust applications. Unless it's a camp/chopper, I think a light blade moves quicker in the hand. Also good materials in the other parts - scales, liners, screws etc.

(2) have good ergnomics - this would translate to handles shaped to fit most human hands well - smooth edges, grippy G10 scales, positive forward and reverse grip.

(3) function well - it must be dependable/reliable, even to the extend of exceeding expectations in its intended applications.

(4) nice aesthetics - this is subjective though. I'm not carrying an ugly knife. period.

As for weight, the knife should hardly be "felt" in the pocket (it's there, you know it's there but your pockets don't sag or bulge. I don't want a shot put ball in my pockets/backpack. :p
 
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