Dialogue needed: Mass vs Technology

To be honest, I really don't pay much attention to mass. The differences in weight seem pretty negligible. It's probably a good idea though to offer a variety of different masses in knives.

I do like SS handled Spydies; they have a more solid feel. (Also, the smooth handles don't tear up your pants.) Unfortunately, most SS Clipits have hollow grinds and I prefer flat grinds. The Dragonfly is awesome, but it's a bit small.

I also marvel at the light weight of the Military. The "perception can be more important than fact" thing definitely happens with this knife though. There's a post every few months in some forum where a person swears that the Military is "cheap" and the handle will probably break if you simply squeeze it too hard.

Two knives that I carry a lot are the Chinook and the Calypso Jr. Ltwt.. I'll choose the CJL when I go jogging or something. During normal everyday carry and use though, I don't really notice the different weights.

It may be interesting to consider that some members of BladeForums carry handguns on a regular basis. A handgun can weigh 10 times what a pocket knife does and is over an inch thick, yet there are people who carry them all day long and have no complaints. It seems strange, by comparison, that people would worry about relatively minute differences in weight and thickness when deciding which knife to carry.
 
Good question.

For me to buy a knife carriability and performance are my two main concerns. Looks also play a part but are not the deal breakers the afore mentioned are.

To me in my situation carriability means that it should not bother me by pincing, hanging up, eating my pants, and should draw the least possible attention to the fact that I am carrying a knife. So light weight, and deep carry I look for. I have a preference for subtle clips as well. The ones on the Temperence jr. is for me far to big wile the normal clips are good. Wire clips sound very promising though I have no experience with them.

So Light weight is good. But so is balance. I like it to be on or just behind my pointer finger. To me that makes for the best handling knives. It's not a deal breaker though.

Folders should IMHO never be heavy to be heavy!

I like Spyderco's light, thin, performance knives. Like the Lum Chinese I am wearing right now.

JD
 
When I first read this thread heading, the first thing that came to mind was larger mass = quality / less mass = cheapness; much like what yog eluded to. This from a 56 year old geezer. I grew up associating light weight products with a certain amount of cheapness from the originals. I know there are better & lighter materials out there for knife construction, but when I pick one of these knives up, my first impression is not always the best! I truely do expect some weight behind my pocketknives & fixed blades. If the 'pocketknife' is to heavy in the pocket, then a belt sheath is used. I realize that I have 'passed on' some excellently crafted & functional knives because of this attitude. Just my .02!
 
I just can't keep away from this topic! Even the lightest handguns when unloaded (S&W Airweight .38) weigh more than the Chinook, the heaviest knife in the lineup. Are we splitting hairs here when talking about an ounce or two? I'm not sure. I also agree that the clip has to work properly. I had a Microtech Amphibian and just could not adjust to the super tight clip, therefore I never ever carried it. I am pleased to say I traded it for a Carbon Fiber Police! (even though the Amphibian cost quite a bit more)

not2sharp is a pretty sharp guy IMO: just build it right and it will weigh what it needs to weigh to function properly.

Thanks again for listening! See you at Blade Sal! :D

Leo Gilbert
 
(Bold text is Sal's)
The most important thing about a knife is that you have it with you (on your person) when you need it. With that in mind, the knife that is the least burden to have with you would have greater value than a knife that created a greater burden when carrying.

I agree with this. I'm rarely doing something where a knife is of central importance. Therefore, I want something that disappears until I need it.

The 2nd most important thing about a knife is that it delivers the most possible performance when you do need it. If you carry it to cut and it doesn't, then the carrying becomes wasted engery.

Compromise is an amazing concept and within it lies all of the variation between that "knife which weighs nothing and cuts nothing" and the "knife that weighs 4 lbs and mows down trees.

I think the critical variable here (with respect to weight) is blade thickness for a given length. Thicker = more mass, and more durability. Other things being equal, a thicker blade is going to be able to handle rougher jobs (within reason. At some point the blade becomes too thick to cut efficiently, so you will likely damage the blade by applying too much force).

In use, I think design is more important than total mass. If a blade balances correctly and fits well in the hand, it will feel much lighter. A 2 pound khukuri can disappear in your hand, while a four inch folder can feel clunky. However, when you sheath a knife or clip it into your pocket, 2 pounds feels like two pounds.

How much performance are you willing to give up to have something that looks good? Considering the experience of using a knife is personal and focused (unless you are sharing with a friend), would you make the same choice if no one else would ever see the knife?

If a design feature "looked" unappealing, but actually performed better, which way would you lean?

I think most people, especially in this forum, would lean towards feel and function. However, it's difficult to separate form from function in the real world. Something makes you pick up or buy a particular knife in the first place. Often, that's either appearance or reputation, especially when you have to order from a catalogue. How many of us own a dozen spydercos or benchmades or microtechs or some other premium brand X? When was the last time you picked up something from United Cutlery to compare how the knives felt in your hand, or how well you could manipulate them? I think my point is that function can be a deal breaker - you're not going to buy a knife that feels awful or cheap - but appearance is often a deal starter, what makes you look more closely at a knife and think about buying in the first place.

Weight doesn't matter all that much to me. As others have said, a lighter knife and a heavier knife can both disappear into your pocket fairly easily - up to about 8 ounces, or so. Bulk is much more important , e.g. can I sit down without poking myself or can I still dig change out of my pocket without removing the knife.

That said, I don't do a lot of hard work with my EDC. If I was looking for a hard use knife, I'd probably want materials (metal liners, thicker blade) that would make the overall knife heavier. If you gave me the choice between two blades, same blade, same steel, same handle design, but one had a carbon fiber handle, the other had a G10 handle with steel liners, I'd probably go for the G10. In my mind, I know carbon fiber is probably as strong or stronger, but gut reaction would be that the heavier knife would perform better. If the knife was going to be EDC, and I didn't expect to use on abusive tasks, the decision would likely be reversed. Also, if you could show me good test data (preferably with graphic pictures!) that showed lighter was stronger, I might be swayed in that direction.
 
I'm willing to accept more mass in the handle, if it makes the handle more rigid, especially in the lock area. Also, I like the mass of a folding knife to be evenly balanced - not too biased towards the blade.
 
I would say that there is not one answer for every case, it is a matter of how you look at each particular knife. Some you like heavy, some you like light.


For example:
I LOVE the Mouse for having that little extra mass that gives it a feel of quality, and I also LOVE the FRN Cricket for being so lightweight that I don't even notice I have it with me.
These two knives do not compete with each other. Each one has its own merits, one needs to be a little heavy and the other needs to be as lightweight as possible.
 
Sal,

To me mass in a knife is only useful if you are chopping with it. To me a carry knife is for utility and self defense. There is little use for a massive self defense folder since the target is soft. A good example is the Camillus CUDA Maxx. It's a great self defense knife. It's large but not massive.

I like the Military but found the shape of the handle didn't fit my small hands well. From an ergonomics standpoint I prefer rounded handles to square ones. For example, the shape of the BM Griptilian handle is great (the blade is a bit too thin for my tastes). I love the shape of the MT LCC but it's too heavy. The MT Amphibian is about perect for my hands except I'd still prefer to have more rounded scales.

I liked the Lil Temperance for size and weight but the finger grouve caught me in the wrong place. For me the perfect medium size folder would be the Lil Temperance blade in a grip like the Griptilian in Lil Temperance style G-10 with a Meerkat style wire clip.

As to balisongs. Yes they require some mass for "flipping" but for just opening and closing for utility and self defense use, the mass can be much less. Please consider offering the SpyderFly in various handle options such as steel, titanium, and aluminum (even "plastic" with steel inserts, yes the flippers will flame me). If you only have one choice make it titanium. I'd also like to see a balisong with a longer handle to blade ratio, say a 3.75 inch blade in handles that would normally fit a 4.5 to 5.0 blade. This would allow slimmer lighter handles that would still flip well but provide enough space below the blade to use the handles as a pinching device without pinching the person between the handle and blade.

Sorry I got off track. I was trained as an aerospace engineer and always go for less mass.

Thanks for asking for my opinion.
 
Carlos,
I'm probably an extreme example, yet even the extremists needed to get a vote in
Click to expand...
So my extremism seems to be in the good company :)
I’m extremely lazy guy and I tolerate additional mass as far as it gives me additional advantages. Pursuing as a goal the minimal mass at given functionality. Naturally remembering that the functionality is the function of intended use...

Well, speaking about folding knives, I use Military for some years on daily basis as my around household folder, it sticks continuously in the right rear pocket of my home jeans and sees a lot of use from kitchen up to backyard and garage. I’m very satisfied with its cutting performance, handling abilities and carrying abilities as long as I’m at home or outdoors. Military is way too big and scarring for daily carry in typical urban environment but it is another question. Anyway I’m satisfied with its ratio between mass and advantages. I would like to see it with double steel liners for some additional strength and this additional mass I would tolerate.

But nothing more! I’m really wondering these odd super tactical folders with thick blades and heavily overbuilt handles what allegedly could serve in prybar role as well. I don’t want to call particular brands, probably you know what I’m talking about. In this case the mass cause only the illusion of the strength. Because nor blade neither handle are folder’s the weakest parts. So additional mass doesn’t cause any additional advantages aside from user’s self-cheating. If the strength of the particular knife part or group of parts runs out of the entire construction strength and common sense limits of intended use – this mass addition is redundant and doesn’t causes any real advantages. Not my cup of tea, period.

Look matter is somewhat more accomplished. I tolerate certainly not the prettiest look of most Spydies because of their functionality. However for me the border runs on “knify look”. I can’t elaborate more accurately what it means, it is very subjective matter. Military, Delica, Endura, Bob Lum Chinese, Salsa and some other look knify for me and I like them. Civilian, Gunting, Chinook, Bob Lum Tanto look not knify for me and I don’t like them. Here is nothing to discuss, this is only my subjective evaluation. I couldn’t exclude with clear cut that it is not caused by my also pretty subjective comparison of these knife functionality with my particular preferences and needs, however this doesn’t make the matter less subjective.

What I would choose if no one would see my knife? Hmm, hard to answer with clear cut as well. I go with SPYDERCO Delica or BM Griptilian when I need performance only and do not care about appearance. I go with SPYDERCO Ti-Salsa or Bob Lum Chinese Folder (or BM 940 Osborne) when I care about appearance in bystander eyes and want to look classy. Mostly my mood tells me to do so because an average bystander usually doesn’t notice any difference. However even my mood is not the least thing for me, finally this is my mood :)
 
Minimum mass is great for some things, like race cars or aircraft. However, if you had a knife that fit your hand perfectly, was as sharp as an obsidian flake, made from an imaginary alloy that never got dull, and was able to support an elephant with the tip embedded an eighth of an inch into a granite slab, but that had zero mass, it would be difficult, dangerous, and a pain in the neck to use. Mass, along with all the other properties, is an element of design which must be provided in the correct amount to produce an ergonomically pleasing, useable tool.
 
In the "other" thread about the wire clip, I voiced my preference for solid over wire. I do not consider the wire clip to be an improvement over the standard solid clip. The wires make the clip more susceptible to snagging than a one-piece solid clip--all other things being equal (angle of the clip's tip, gap between pocket material and inner surface of clip, etc.). Further, with a knife sitting deep in the pocket the clip often becomes a critical aid for gripping and extracting the knife--for me, it's advantage: solid clip.

Like the "R" vs. say, an Edura, the absence of solid material in strategic places can render the Rs design a disadvantage in certain situations/functions (e.g., spreading peanut butter. Yes, I know the "R" was not for making PBJ sandwiches but you get the idea). Similarly, the wire clip design comes with some "baggage."

Don't get me wrong; I'm a minimalist at heart. I buy my cameras, radios, binoculars and the like that are small/lightweight as well as practical/effective. For me, these gadgets get the most use since they're both convenient to carry and effective in use. Bottom Line: Minimal mass is good but it also has to work effectively. (I like Sergiusz Mitin's term better: "minimal mass at given functionality").
 
Since I always carry a knife (a folding knife, to be more specific), I preffer by far a lightweight model. I really believe that form follows function, therefore, I'd go for an "ugly" knife (though I can't find anything ugly to my Delica, for instance) with good steel and well thought ergonomics, much rather than for a "nicer" knife, to be used mostly for show.
If a knife has an improved feature that doesn't look appealing, I'd try to make it look good. Also note that people's taste must be educated (market making, if you want). When Spydies first appeared, more than 20 years ago, they were considered "ugly" with very few exceptions. At least nowadays there are many beautiful spydies, not only because of refinements but also because ELU's oppinions changed during all this time.
 
Please make it less pleasing to the eye if it will truly perform better. I'm really interested in what an ugly but better wire clip would be like. I have an Al Salsa and just received a Native III yesterday. I was completely underwhelmed by the clip on the Salsa, but it seems to work a bit better on the design of the Native III. I still lean toward the old 3 screw clip or something like the clip on the Lil' Temperance.

I really think the wire clip has potential on the FRN models. It seems to keep with the minimalist design more. But on the larger ones with the "stronger" materials I'd like to see the continuation of screw attached solid clips.
 
I find I care about function more than form. If I can have both, great. But if not, I'll take the one that works over the one that looks pretty. A folder should be as light as possible without sacrificing strength. It sits on the edge of your pocket more often than it actually cuts. I don't mind a little weight, myself, but when I pack a Buck 110 I'm very aware there's something on my hip. I haven't tried the wire clip but so long as it's reversable I'm all for it. As a Southpaw I'll take a wire clip on the "right" side over a solid clip on the "wrong" side. What I'd pay top dollar for would be a slightly longer, thinner Salsa (I liked the finger grooves on the one I held), just a bit pointier, reversable wire clip, no cobra hood, and wood inlay grips. I'd even be happy with a wood inlayed SS Delica in VG-10, so long as I could flip the clip over. Of course, if that happened I might not need to buy any more folders ever again. I was on a traditional kick, picking up a couple of carbon steel trappers, but the last week or so my plain edge Rescue has been following me around. It's just too handy to languish on a shelf in my bedroom.

Frank
 
Well, let's compare my antique Buck 110 to my Native.

The weight of my Buck 110 give me the illusion of robustness and strength.

I term this as an illusion because my Buck 110, a dated design, probably has no more robustness and strength than does my Native.

I don't carry my Buck 110 anymore because I don't want another thingy on my belt, and the Buck absolutely requires a belt sheath for comfortable carry; AND I don't carry my Buck 110 because I can't open it with one hand.

I always have my Native with me, and conveniently so because of its light weight and slimness.

Would I tolerate a little more weight and thickness in exchange for more strength?

Yes, but at some point I would draw the line.

If Spyderco ever makes a slightly beefier Native, with a little bit more weight, more thickness, steel liners and upgraded pivot and lock (all for the purpose of enhancing strength, and for no other reason), I will definitely buy one and experiment with it.

If I can carry it I will; and if I can't I still have my original Native.

Consider, though, that I carry a Native primarily with self-defense in mind (I have a Leatherman for utility), and so I might value the slight upgrade in strength that would come with beefiness more than someone else would.

In a folder, weight distribution for the sake of balance has little or no relevance.

In a fixed-blade utility and self-defense knife I prefer a butt heavy or neutral balance.

I don't use a knife for hacking or chopping.

In closing, please preserve the swedge in any future Native designs.

I like having the option of sharpening the swedge, and I consider the strong acute point provided by the swedge one of the Native's many valuable features.

I have one of the early GIN-1 Natives, and it has only gotten sweeter with time.
 
It depends.

I really like my FRN Native. But, try as I did, I just couldn't go for the SS Native. The SS Native just didn't work for me; partly the weight, partly the feel.

Meanwhile, I really like the SS Dragonfly. Before I bought my Dragonfly, I had seen the FRN version in the store, and while it appealed to me, it just wasn't quite right. When the store got the SS Dragonfly in, I bought it as soon as I saw it; it worked for me in SS but not in FRN. And may I say that the Dragonfly, especially in SS, is one of the very nicest knives produced by any company. Practical and tactical. I'm going to buy a few more when I can.

And, the Starmate is great with it's single nested liner; plenty strong and stiff for any practical use. It sure doesn't need dual liners to make it heavier and the handle thicker. Same for the Military, which I'll eventually buy in the S30V version. Some of the Benchmade Axis knives appeal to me, and I looked at some in the store (i.e. - 730 Aries), but I just can't go for their bulk compared to the Military or Starmate.


A few jokes?:
1. "Mass vs. Technology"; that sounds like one of those "Hulk vs. Spiderman" comic books.

2. As to Mass, I wouldn't know about that stuff because I'm not Catholic.

3. I put the funk in function.
 
Balance of the knife is more important than mass. One thing I disliked about my Military and Benchmade's Griptillian is their light handles in relation to the blades. This always made them feel heavier in hand than knives that had better balance.

Ergonomics are really important. A good pocket knife should have a small and slim profile so it rides nicely in the pocket and still allows your hand to get other things out of that pocket. But the handle needs to be big enough for a comfortable grip. I usually carry knives with a 3.5" - 4" blade because anything smaller than that has a compromised handle.

A pocket clip should look good, be stealth, hold tight, and not bend or break then you run it into a door jam while walking fast.
 
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