Diamond,ceramic, natural or synthetic waterstone for carbon steel.

D

DavidL41

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Oct 12, 2014
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Im thinking about going 3 routes to get a sharpening set up for carbon steel - white steel and blue steel. Which would give a slightly aggressive, yet polished edge. Are water stones the way to go with Japanese steels or can DMT give them a run for there money in half the time.

1. Diamond DMT Fine/EF. I read its roughly 1k,4k japanese grit. Are diamonds too aggressive even with water to sharpen white or blue steel. This would likely be my one stop solution for the moment if white or blue steel can sharpen with a few strokes and be good to go.

2. Close second - Natural 1k stone, 3k stone. I would like to get something in the middle of aggressive and polished so this is very similar to DMT in grit size if the DMT cant sharpen carbon steel decently.

3. A stone that requires soaking like a shapton pro. What are the differences between a splash and go waterstone vs a soak waterstone.

End use is cutting leather. Less time the better 1-2 minutes for touch up is best. Splash n go is good, no mess is better. Although I wouldn't mind a messier stone for superior cutting performance.

Over time I would likely try diamond, ceramics and natural waterstones but for now want a cost effective solution.
I've asked a few of these questions before but am still undecided. Would DMT F/EF be worth a shot or do I get better performance by using waterstones on carbon steel and taking 2-3 minutes to touch up vs a minute on the dmt extra fine stone (is this about the right time frame to get an working edge).
 
Shortened question - carbon steel - are dmt fine/extra fine able to sharpen these without problem. Should I go for shapton glass stones as they are less harsh.
 
Any of those work just fine. Diamond of course being fastest. I would go with the DMT DiaSharp line if I were you. Or if you want to spend some money, order the Atoma diamond stones. Ezelap is another great brand of diamond hones. With diamond any steel is a target. Blue steel, with it's alloying, takes a bit more work to get sharp than White steel, but not by much. This is just one of those decisions you're going to need to make yourself. I say go with diamond (even tho I love my waterstones) because diamond stones have no problem sharpening higher alloy steels. Waterstones take a bit more time/effort. I have not used the higher end stones that are diamond impregnated, or ceramic waterstones, or any of the higher end stones. They're supposed to cut very rapidly from what I hear.

Your short question...the DMT fine (600) will sharpen carbon steel just fine. Many chefs like a 600 or 1200 grit finish on their protein slicers, nothing higher than that. How hard you press down is key. If you have a nice thinned edge at a low angle (say 7.5 degrees) established, go to micro bevel with the 1200 and use the weight of the knife alone....no pressure. Works wonders.

If just touching up, Skyhorse said it, strops with compound usually will do the trick until you really need to actually sharpen on stones. I like the 1200 grit ceramic rod. Just a couple VERY light strokes on each side and my Blue and White steel knives are good to go.
 
Diamond would not be my first choice for sharpening carbon steels and if we are talking White and Blue steel I highly recommend you NOT USE DIAMOND STONES.

Any decent waterstone will be good for carbon steels and provide you with some of the best edges possible. I highly recommend against natural waterstones until you at least buy a synthetic stone and learn the basics of sharpening.

For Japanese steels the Naniwa Chosera which have now changed names to Naniwa Professional would be my first recommendation. A set of 400, 1k, and 3k would cover about any sharpening need.
 
Theres two apposing viewpoints. One for and one against diamond stone on carbon steel.

In theory why does the diamonds not work with the carbon steel? Does it create an uneven scratch pattern?

I also have a stainless knife that DMT would be more suited for but can probably still be sharpened on ceramic waterstone. Would it be possible to use the fine/EF dmt stone on white paper carbon steel and then use the next step up in grit of ceramic waterstone (I'm guessing 6k) to remove the marks or are the diamond stones that aggressive on the carbon steels?

I understand its not traditional way for japanese knife to be sharpened with dmt but the faster the better without skipping over any corners that aren't necessary. A 1k and 3k could work too id imagine.
 
Jason B is spot on. Either the Chosera or the Norton synthetic water stones. The natural water stones take a very trained eye to choose due to the imperfections inherent in natural stones. The imperfections will prevent a truly sharp edge unless you are a pro.

As for the synthetic the Chosera are best cause you do not need to soak them prior to use.

Check out korin.com and their YouTube vids
 
Most 1k Waterstones will cut faster than a fine or extra fine DMT on carbon steel. DMT's are only faster when the steel becomes very wear resistant like S30V.

Diamonds are not the best choice for carbon steels because they are too agressive and tend to chew up the edge. This causes excessive burring and a edge that is sharp but could be better. It becomes even more problematic with japanese steels because they are often much harder and the use of a diamond plate can cause deep scratching which can be difficult to remove. It can also cause chipping at the edge while sharpening.
 
I had something typed up in reply, but realized there was just no way that I could make it sound non confrontational. Jason, I love you bud, but respectfully disagree with your assessment of diamond on carbon. Proper technique when using diamond stones simply negates every one of those concerns you mentioned.

There are the waterstone guys that will tell you use nothing but waterstones. Then there are the diamond guys that tell you use nothing but diamond. Then there is me, telling you to use BOTH!!! My routine on a new knife is usually coarse diamond stones to establish the edge. Medium and fine diamond to refine that established bevel....never apexing. Then over to medium/fine waterstones to apex, followed by fine and super fine (4000-12000) waterstones. No stropping needed.

But if I had to choose one over the other....diamond all day. I can do any steel with them....quickly.

Over and out
 
Regarding using diamonds for 'carbon steel' (generally), I don't have any reservations about using it. A diamond hone in the pocket is probably the most bulletproof solution for any knife, on the go. In terms of cutting speed, whether it's faster than a waterstone or not (I don't know), it's basically moot on carbon steels anyway, as a Fine diamond hone is going to be plenty fast on all but very big/thick blades. I like using diamond in Fine or EF for smaller traditional folders in carbon steel (1095, CV, etc), as such blades can sometimes be re-bevelled entirely with just a handful of passes using a 'credit card' diamond hone, and maybe a single pass per side on very small blades.

I don't have any of the blue/white Japanese steels, but if they're hardened to very high RC (low/mid-60s or higher) as these steels apparently are at times, then sometimes a diamond hone at coarser grits might be risky for chipping issues. At RC 60 or lower, I wouldn't worry at all. Nice thing about quality carbon steel is, it responds well to most anything, if used with technique appropriate to the abrasive (use ligher touch & finer grit on diamond and other more aggressive abrasives).


David
 
There is a huge difference between carbon steels at 58-59 and Japanese white steel at 64.

I have a complete set of DMT diasharps and had them before waterstones, I'm just a stone guy that likes all stones, no bias here.

Will a diamond stone work? Sure, but it's not a wise choice for the specific steels stated. I've sharpened a lot of japanese steel and would not advise using a diamond hone. You could even use a India stone but again probably too coarse and not a wise choice. For setting bevels and other coarse work they are great but from about 800 grit on up Waterstones are more efficient.

We are all I titled to our opinion though so diagree as you wish, I am not offended.
 
I agree that apexing on hard steels with diamond is not a good idea. But then again, I believe apexing with ANY coarse abrasive is not good....because you want a nice smooth foundation for the actual edge. For me sharpening is not just about cutting one bevel on each side, but two. The first being the bevel created by thinning (not apexing) and the second micro bevel being the actual edge. I always thin a knife.....and in doing so go with the coarsest stone I can get my hands on. But Cliff's work in sharpening has me convinced that apexing with coarse stones is never good....regardless of what medium it is.

You're right, there is a massive difference in 58 and 64, but have no problems at all with diamond on the hard stuff. Hell, I just thinned out a Miyabi ZDP189 @66 with the atoma set. If you know how to use your equipment, that is all that matters. For me, I like polished edges, and diamonds only go to 1200 anyway, so all edges get finished on waterstones to at least 4000.

a correction....DMT has XX fine stone.....8000 grit I think.
 
Sorry, I don't follow Cliff. His opinions are a bit far fetched for me.

BTW, ZDP is stainless.
 
Thanks for the replies. I will pick up water stones then a dmt for my stainless knife and see how it goes on carbon steel.
 
I don't "follow" Cliff either. Just say the word superquench and get me going. BTW, I know what ZDP189 is. My point being diamond on hard steel.
 
It's a hard steel but also packed full of chromium carbides which the diamonds do very well at sharpening. High alloy steels are what diamond plates sharpen best.

The reason I don't recommend diamond for carbon is because they don't pair well IMO. When you have a lot of sharpening stones and sharpen a broad range of steels you start to see patterns of steels that work almost magically with a stone and others that couldn't be worse. If you do not have a large selection of stones then these little things go unnoticed for the most part.
 
Jason B. said:
It's a hard steel but also packed full of chromium carbides which the diamonds do very well at sharpening. High alloy steels are what diamond plates sharpen best.

The reason I don't recommend diamond for carbon is because they don't pair well IMO. When you have a lot of sharpening stones and sharpen a broad range of steels you start to see patterns of steels that work almost magically with a stone and others that couldn't be worse. If you do not have a large selection of stones then these little things go unnoticed for the most part.
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I am new to sharpening but have a few blades with various steels in them. I hope this doesnt mean that a person has to have alot of different stones or sharpening systems to get the job done on whatever blade steel one has.

I dont own any waterstones or oil stones as I dont want a mess! :) I do have some stuff like a Norton economy stone from Home Depot, some DMT's, a Sharpmaker w/UF rods and a 701MF profile set. I still feel I have more stuff than I need but with these items I figured I could sharpen any blade I own! A least I hope that is the case. I dont want a bunch of different stones or sharpening stuff around to use for specific steels and end up with a big drawer full.

I mainly have a few sak's, Spyderco's with cts-204p and vg-10, Leatherman MT's with 420 and 154cm, one or two carbon 1095 fixed blades, etc. and I feel like I have more sharpening stuff than EDC stuff!
 
This is where the sharpening "geeks" hang out. (no offense guys!) They view sharpening as a science.
For most people, waterstones are not needed. They require a learning curve.
Diamonds will sharpen any material, but they can leave a coarser edge than is ideal-and it's easy to damage the stones if you don't know what you are doing.
I am not a fan of guided sharpeners for anyone but the most sharpening-challenged. A simple fine India stone, used properly, will sharpen most steels you are likely to be using. If that steel is carbon steel, Arkansas stones and silicon carbide wet/dry sandpaper will help you refine the edge.
 
Jason, I have a feeling you and I probably agree on just about all of it. My reply to the OP was more along the lines of, carbon steel may likely not be the only stuff you'll want to sharpen. I gathered the OP did not have any stones at the moment. For sharpening gurus, who have the diamond stones, arkansas line-up, water stones, fine mesh honing papers, jigs, etc etc etc, my answer would have been different. BEST stone to sharpen carbon steel....the one you have and are good at. Did I just end a sentence with a preposition?
 
samuraistuart said:
Jason, I have a feeling you and I probably agree on just about all of it. My reply to the OP was more along the lines of, carbon steel may likely not be the only stuff you'll want to sharpen. I gathered the OP did not have any stones at the moment. For sharpening gurus, who have the diamond stones, arkansas line-up, water stones, fine mesh honing papers, jigs, etc etc etc, my answer would have been different. BEST stone to sharpen carbon steel....the one you have and are good at. Did I just end a sentence with a preposition?
Click to expand...

That thought has crossed my mind many times here. Everybody goes down a different path with the tools they try out, and at some point, they find something that really 'clicks' when working a particular blade on a particular stone. That spurs them forward with encouragement, and they keep working at using the same tool with that and other knives, and develop a repeatable skill using it. I still think it comes down to how one adapts their own technique and touch as they go, and that in turn improves results with whichever tool they've begun to like using. End result is that one individual will have developed a better touch with a waterstone, another with an India stone, another with a diamond hone and so on. This is much of the reason why I've kept turning around to re-try other tools or methods that might not've worked so well for me before, but often seem to work better the more I keep messing with them.

(And, after mentioning earlier that I like a Fine/EF diamond hone for carbon steel, I quickly picked up a SiC pocket stone and re-visited how it works on one of my CV pocketknives. It works good too, but in a different way, with a different touch and a different flavor of 'sharp' as a result. :))


David
 
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