Diamond Paste or Spray?
- Thread starter Rhodies
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I've got paste right now. I don't really like to apply it. Spray or emulsion is probably way easier to apply. Iirc Ken Schwartz uses paste on belts which would make sense to me.
I would guess each version is more idea for a different material. To me paste is harder to make uniform. While spray or emulsion may be easier?
I dunno. I recently saw a video of a guy using a small paint spatula to apply paste to a strop, seemed much easier that way. Saw another guy just rub it in with his fingers to spread it all.
My next step is to get some spray or emulsion and make a few new strops with some better materials.
Anyways I'm probably going to go with some Ken Schwartz which is by hand America iirc. Or some bastardstrops emulsion. Just not 100% sure if I should go cbn (poly) or diamond, poly or mono. Consistency of the diamond or cbn matters. In cheaper brands you'll have a higher range of differing micron abrasives.
In any case I'm using diamond paste on denim and the results are great for the most part. Much better finish than the SiC I was using prior.
I would guess each version is more idea for a different material. To me paste is harder to make uniform. While spray or emulsion may be easier?
I dunno. I recently saw a video of a guy using a small paint spatula to apply paste to a strop, seemed much easier that way. Saw another guy just rub it in with his fingers to spread it all.
My next step is to get some spray or emulsion and make a few new strops with some better materials.
Anyways I'm probably going to go with some Ken Schwartz which is by hand America iirc. Or some bastardstrops emulsion. Just not 100% sure if I should go cbn (poly) or diamond, poly or mono. Consistency of the diamond or cbn matters. In cheaper brands you'll have a higher range of differing micron abrasives.
In any case I'm using diamond paste on denim and the results are great for the most part. Much better finish than the SiC I was using prior.
I don't have experience with the sprays and emulsions. I use super cheap CN diamond paste to finish off my show edges with the PTS method. Super easy to apply. PTS uses up much of the paste but since it's so inexpensive, no big deal.
If money is no concern, by all means go ahead with premium leather strops plus emulsions sprays. Keep in mind that you'll need at least 3 diamond stropping steps , e.g. 1.5micron 1.0micron 0.5micron , to make any sense out of your financial investment.
If money is no concern, by all means go ahead with premium leather strops plus emulsions sprays. Keep in mind that you'll need at least 3 diamond stropping steps , e.g. 1.5micron 1.0micron 0.5micron , to make any sense out of your financial investment.
Why would you cover a premium leather strop with a compound? That's like covering fine furniture that has a hand-rubbed French Polish with spray paint! The micro-silicates in leather are MUCH finer than your diamond abrasives, and are used for a 'final finish.' Put your compound on any firm surface that you'd throw away... MDF, a paint stirring paddle, hard balsa, etc., unless, as you suggest, money is of no concern at all. A premium leather strop is going to cost at least $100+. Better off using some old leather belt out of the back of the closet.
Stitchawl
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Though interchangeable for hand honing and low speed wheels (< 200 rpm), sprays are better on felt and leather, while paste elsewhere.
For powered honing at higher RPM, the oil-based paste is preferred for its lubricating and cooling effect.
On leather strops & wheels the sprays will dry quickly, while with frequent application of an oil-based paste you may over-oil the leather and stropping becomes less effective.
For powered honing at higher RPM, the oil-based paste is preferred for its lubricating and cooling effect.
On leather strops & wheels the sprays will dry quickly, while with frequent application of an oil-based paste you may over-oil the leather and stropping becomes less effective.
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I got some Poltava CBN Paste from Gritomatic when I order my Metallic bonded CBN stones and I was not impressed at first with it,what happened was it almost seemed like it was leaving a thick waxy layer on the edge of my blade and I figured that can't be good because now all I'm doing is stropping the CBN waxy layer,but I solved this problem in a second I just used my hair dryer and heated the paste until it became liquid and then the waxy crap pretty much all stopped right away,I have to wipe the edge once on each side after I heated the strop gently and then stropped each side of the knife for the first time and then it was good.
I had asked Konstantin about heating the strop after the CBN was on it and he advised against this because I think he was worried I might over heat the strop and ruin the leather,I used Kangaroo leather strop's.
I had asked Konstantin about heating the strop after the CBN was on it and he advised against this because I think he was worried I might over heat the strop and ruin the leather,I used Kangaroo leather strop's.
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I like rustoleum! Having a $100 strop is the part that is nuts to me. I use the Ken Shwartz CBN emulsions on kangaroo leather, and for the 2 finest grits I use it on nanocloth strops. The emulsion goes on easy and drys fast, ready to use in 5 minutes or less. The cbn emulsions work extremely well for me. I may give some poly diamond stuff a try in the future just to experiment, but really have no reason too because I am getting the results I wanted from cbn. I do like to experiment though.
I have used the green compound and others in the past with so-so results. These type work best for non-super steel blades in my opinion. I rarely use the wax stick compounds anymore.
I usually finish my stropping with an untreated kangaroo strop on my finest blades.
I have used the green compound and others in the past with so-so results. These type work best for non-super steel blades in my opinion. I rarely use the wax stick compounds anymore.
I usually finish my stropping with an untreated kangaroo strop on my finest blades.
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Mo2 I got some Poltava CBN Paste and I found the best way to apply is to just use it with a leather strop Kangaroo is what I use,I just spread it on and try and get it as uninform as I can and then just gently heat it with a Hair Drier on high and move it back and forth quick but not to quick and I just wait for the waxy stuff to melt into the leather,I find once it start's to melt I go over the strop with 2 o 3 pass's and not to slow but not to fast either.
I found with the CBN Paste if it was not heated in it left a thick waxy not film more like layer on the edge and I was stropping the waxy crap on the edge on not the knife edge at all,even after heating it in or the pass after heating it in I had to wipe just the edge I did the first pass on with a rag and then it stopped altogether.
I found with the CBN Paste if it was not heated in it left a thick waxy not film more like layer on the edge and I was stropping the waxy crap on the edge on not the knife edge at all,even after heating it in or the pass after heating it in I had to wipe just the edge I did the first pass on with a rag and then it stopped altogether.
Kangaroo leather makes a very good strop... for a reason.
It has the highest concentration of natural silicates of all the leathers. Teeny, tiny silicates, much smaller than 99% of commercial compounds.
If you can get vegetable tanned Kangaroo leather, there is nothing finer for finishing an edge.
Of course, Kangaroo leather is more expensive than horsehide or cowhide...
But it sounds pretty cool. Kind of exotic....
Of course, if you cover up all those wonderfully tiny natural silicates, you may as well be using typewriter paper as your base, for all the good expensive, exotic leathers may do. Stick with Rust-Oleum.
Stitchawl
It has the highest concentration of natural silicates of all the leathers. Teeny, tiny silicates, much smaller than 99% of commercial compounds.
If you can get vegetable tanned Kangaroo leather, there is nothing finer for finishing an edge.
Of course, Kangaroo leather is more expensive than horsehide or cowhide...
But it sounds pretty cool. Kind of exotic....
Of course, if you cover up all those wonderfully tiny natural silicates, you may as well be using typewriter paper as your base, for all the good expensive, exotic leathers may do. Stick with Rust-Oleum.
Stitchawl
^This advice aligns very well with the info at the https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/ blog, which suggests a 2-fold approach to stropping that I've posted about elsewhere. Basically, strop on something hard with compound to micro-convex your apex, then strop on clean leather to lightly abrade and improve keenness right at the apex. In both stages, the findings were that you didn't need a lot of strokes or a lot of pressure to get the desired effect.
Takeaway for the OP is there's no need to worry a lot about 'which compound' to use. Personally I would put your primary thought and effort into your technique and your sharpening process, including your stropping process as above. Get those things right, and the solution will be of very secondary importance. All the diamond, AlOx, or CBN compounds or sprays I've ever used have worked about equally well (assuming you use them on metals that they can abrade), and you probably won't go far astray with any of them. Another good one not mentioned in this thread is the Bark River CBN compound, which you can get in a cost-effective 2oz size and in various grits at dlttrading.com, and if I were in the market for more CBN compound today, honestly that's what I'd get. Currently I've settled on Gritomatic CBN 1 micron compound as my do-it-all compound to micro-convex my edges, but I'd have no problem using Bark River CBN, Ken Schwarz, DMT sprays, Jende, Kent Supplies, etc, they all work.
Takeaway for the OP is there's no need to worry a lot about 'which compound' to use. Personally I would put your primary thought and effort into your technique and your sharpening process, including your stropping process as above. Get those things right, and the solution will be of very secondary importance. All the diamond, AlOx, or CBN compounds or sprays I've ever used have worked about equally well (assuming you use them on metals that they can abrade), and you probably won't go far astray with any of them. Another good one not mentioned in this thread is the Bark River CBN compound, which you can get in a cost-effective 2oz size and in various grits at dlttrading.com, and if I were in the market for more CBN compound today, honestly that's what I'd get. Currently I've settled on Gritomatic CBN 1 micron compound as my do-it-all compound to micro-convex my edges, but I'd have no problem using Bark River CBN, Ken Schwarz, DMT sprays, Jende, Kent Supplies, etc, they all work.
I really like Kangaroo leather strops,,, main reason is very thin and hard surface.
Always use it with fine diamond or CBN media, makes for a fast and crisp apex formation.
Any leather without abrasive media will work with the old plain carbon steel at unknown heat treat hardness (very popular with antique straight razors) however, today's alloys really appreciate diamond. If you have lots of time and a very steady hand vs. quick, crisp and efficient surface prep. Use magnification to observe for yourself.
Regards,
FK
Always use it with fine diamond or CBN media, makes for a fast and crisp apex formation.
Any leather without abrasive media will work with the old plain carbon steel at unknown heat treat hardness (very popular with antique straight razors) however, today's alloys really appreciate diamond. If you have lots of time and a very steady hand vs. quick, crisp and efficient surface prep. Use magnification to observe for yourself.
Regards,
FK
Yes, Kangaroo leather is very, very nice. As I said before, it's the very best for micro-silicates. But... it's expensive. If you only need its 'thin and hard' properties, why not just use a piece of 59¢ MDF board? No need to spend $25 for that. Or compressed balsa? Where is the advantage of the Kangaroo leather?
I do agree with you that compounds can be needed for some of the newer and harder steel alloys. No question about that. I just question the waste of money on the substrate for those compound. My own EDC, a Benchmade 710 axis lock uses AST-34 steel, which responds very well to eight to ten strokes on 0.5 mic Chromium Oxide on a piece of MDF, followed by five to ten strokes on bare Shell Cordovan Horsehide. Once a week with this regime and I don't touch a stone with it more than once a year. Of course, I only need it to be tree-topping sharp and no more. Others may need sharper.
Stitchawl
I realized that my previous post assumes that people 'strop' and not 'sharpen' using compounds and bare leather. We do have members here who regularly take 200-400 strokes on a progressive series of finer and finer compounds. To me, despite the edge-trailing action, that is 'sharpening,' rather than 'stropping.' I guess we need to clarify this in our discussions. I think of stropping in the traditional usage; putting a final finish on an edge with just a few strokes on the strop.
Stitchawl
Stitchawl
Personal preference,,, test the various strop base materials side by side with identical diamond sub-micron grades. MDF with hard glues and unknown particles vs. very smooth, flat, thin, hard leather?
All kinds of substrate materials work, if they are hard and flat with surfaces that do not affect the stropping media.
Adequate vs. precision, it is your personal choice.
Regards,
FK
Are you using Johansson blocks to measure the smooth flatness of your strops?
Or... when dealing with abrasives at the micron and sub-micron level, does the absolute smoothness even make a difference? I don't think so... The abrasive action occurs where ever the cutting surface contacts the steel. At 1000x +/- magnification (where micron behavior will be taking place,) a smooth continuous service (to the naked eye, of course) is irrelevant. This is why it really makes no difference at all if one uses the rough side of leather or the flat, shiny side when stropping, except of course, in the number of strokes required to get the job done. The rough side will take one or two more passes, as it is only contacting the blade in an interrupted fashion.
If this were not the case, the interrupted stropping block that one of our esteemed members sells would not be so effective. His has intentional crevices covering the entire strop block, yet his device produces an incredible edge none the less.
It's for this very same reason that it's not necessary to create a smooth, even coverage with compound on a strop. The blade is only going to be abraded where it makes contact with the compound. Coverage that is 'smooth' to the naked eye, is anything BUT smooth on the micron level. It looks like the surface of the moon under a microscope. Sure, it 'looks' nicer to have compound smoothed out like peanut butter. But a 'dusting' of the actual abrasive is all that's needed. The spaces between the cutting surfaces don't add up to a hill of beans.
Some people just can't resist applauding the Emperor's new clothes.
Very interesting counter point. Like so many discussions, it reads very well however, not based upon reality.
I did my first undergraduate degree in Mechanical Engineering with minor in Metallurgy.
After polishing many steel samples to submicron finishes for photomicrographs it was quickly determined a hard flat surface was essential to obtain best results.
Study the techniques used for sharpening and stropping Japanese kitchen knives and wood cutting tools.
Are these techniques essential for general use knives, of course not,,, one can strop on copy paper with CrO or AlO. Or denim cloth or soft mushy leather belt, your choice.
Flat surface vs. coarse or rough surface, it is your decision, just test and observe the results.
There is no right or wrong way to sharpen or strop.
Regards,
FK
I did my first undergraduate degree in Mechanical Engineering with minor in Metallurgy.
After polishing many steel samples to submicron finishes for photomicrographs it was quickly determined a hard flat surface was essential to obtain best results.
Study the techniques used for sharpening and stropping Japanese kitchen knives and wood cutting tools.
Are these techniques essential for general use knives, of course not,,, one can strop on copy paper with CrO or AlO. Or denim cloth or soft mushy leather belt, your choice.
Flat surface vs. coarse or rough surface, it is your decision, just test and observe the results.
There is no right or wrong way to sharpen or strop.
Regards,
FK
No one is questioning the fact that a hard surface can be beneficial.
The questions is how FLAT. Does it need to be a smooth, continuous surface for several inches in each direction? Does it need to have the 'flat' of a Johansson block, or will a surface smoothed to, say, 240 grit work well for stropping. (Stropping, mind you, not sharpening.) When polishing rubies and sapphires, an ordinary cloth wheel is used, not some super-smooth, super-flat device.
Very good suggestion! I spent 15 years living and working in Japan, doing just that... In Seki City and in southern Osaka in the Sakai district. Oddly enough, virtually all of the custom knife makers used cloth wheels to put a finishing strop on their blades. Round, soft cloth wheels... unless, of course, they were polishing by hand, in which case, they used soft cloth.
LOL! I'm not even going to touch this one!
Stitchawl