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Recommendation? Diamond Plate/Waterstone

Discussion in 'Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment' started by Jason B., Jul 26, 2019.

  1. Jason B.

    Jason B. KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 13, 2007
    It's been some years but I think I have finally worn my DMT plates enough that I can notice a performance difference. It started a few months ago when I was having a hell of a time reducing the burr on a High wear Alloy, I thought i was just having an off day but this "problem" kept coming up. So, for the last month I have been playing with some of my newer diamond plates and Diafolds and have come to the conclusion my large DMT Diasharp plates are dull and making my tasks frustrating.

    Now heres where the decision gets tough, I have used DMT for the past decade and then some and have had wonderful results. I like the very sharp and crisp edges they produce and have probably turned hundreds on to their use but times have changed and I have been looking hard at Diamond Waterstones. I've only ever used the Naniwa 800 and that was just a handful of times on J-knives, so not a very good sample. These stones come at a high price and while I trust Naniwa quality I'm always looking for a good deal. Offerings such as those from Gritomatic come to mind but I would like to hear from those using these type of stones about some likes and dislikes you may have with different brands.

    This will be for use with high alloy steels only and I DO NOT need any grit higher than 1000 JIS. Something around 300-400 and 800-1200 preferably in individual stones unless its a really good combo stone.
     
  2. Wowbagger

    Wowbagger Basic Member Basic Member

    Sep 20, 2015
    I couldn't say.
    I'll be lurking though. I'll be getting one of the fine grit diamond water stones soon.
    Sure is dead around here.
    At least this will bump the thread.
     
  3. Backyard

    Backyard

    68
    Jul 19, 2019
    I like my DMT plates but the fine & very fine seem to wear a little too quick and the course turns to fine. My extra fine feels like my 4k plate after only about one year. I love thay they cut the super steels quickly and remain flat though

    I've never worn out a natural stone or any non diamond one yet but I don't like how they can dish and require flattening. Also not the best for high carbide steels too

    I've been debating trying out one of the Norton ceramic stones to see how they compare. I heard they work on the high alloy steels just fine but do require a lubricant to keep them from loading up.

    Never heard of a Diamond Waterstone. But I have and regularly use water on my diamond plates.
     
  4. wade7575

    wade7575

    703
    Apr 3, 2013
    Try looking into the Sigma Powder Select 2 stones they are supposed to be really fast cutting stones,I don't have any coarse grit ones but have their higher grit stones like the 6 10 and 13K and they are amazing stones.I know Lee Valley tools carries them in Canada and I think they do in states as well.

    A lot of guys who sharpen wood working chisel's and stuff swear by them and are loyal to that brand like you wouldn't believe,they are a bit pricey but then again you get what you pay for.
     
  5. Ourorboros

    Ourorboros

    260
    Jan 23, 2017
    I have a Venev 800/1200 (FEPA-F), no longer being offered IIRC.
    It has a rubbery feel. It doesn't need wear-in like a DMT, since the grit isn't sitting right up on the surface of the plate. I can't compare speed or estimate how long it will last, since I got it recently. I suspect it's a bit slower though. Not sure how I'm going to flatten it when the time comes.
    For the lower volume sharpening of a home user, I like it fine. I don't have to sacrifice steel to get it to cut right. I don't know if I can really compare this to the Naniwa though, since the resins could be very different. They may age differently in air/UV.
    By YT reviews, the Naniwa cuts slower than a DMT, with the benefit of better feel and cutting true to rating when NIB.

    Another option is offered by Gritomatic. They have a Russian sourced SiC waterstone. Well several. I have the 2500, but they have 400 and 1K. It cuts fast and has good feel, similar to that of the Suehiro Debado. Maybe a bit softer. If I didn't have so many mid-grit stones that I like, I'd try out the others. That should handle high wear steel just fine.
     
  6. wade7575

    wade7575

    703
    Apr 3, 2013
    @Ourorboros

    You use Silicon Carbide Powder you get from Gritomatic,it's funny you should say that I was just talking to Konstantin the owner of Gritomatic about to refresh the Venev stones as I have a few in need of refreshing and you use the same method to flatten them.

    Multiply the diamond grit in Micron's by 3 and that's your cap as far as the finest grit you go to with the Silicon Carbide Powder.
    You can start off with a F120 or F150 Silicon Carbide Powder,Konstantin didn't say this next part but I'm guessing you may want to use 1 or 2 grit's between the starting grit like the F120 before ending up at the final grit Silicon Carbide Powder just to help the progression,I know my Venev stones have an extremely hard resin and I can't see just using 2 powders giving very good result's.You also want to use a peace of glass and I got a peace 14x14 tempered glass from a Window and Door place.

    If you have never used Silicon Carbide Powder before just warning from what I have read a few times,don't get the really powdery stuff airborne it can cause cancer if you breath it in,I just use a teaspoon and a rag over my face then as gently as possible remove the amount of powder I want then put in on the glass plate and add water and mix it into a slurry then your fine.

    If you look at the F1200 Venev stone the Micron of the Diamonds in that stone are 3 then multiplied by 3 witch is 9,witch means you want to end at a 9 Micron Silicon Carbide Powder,on a chart I have F600 is 10 Micron's and that the closest I seen.

    I use this chart here in the link and I have downloaded the web page and have made it into a pdf and if you want the pdf just email me at [email protected] and I will send it to you.

    On that chart it shows what git a FEPA stone would be in other format like the Japanese grit scale and also the Micron's it would be as well.

    https://www.fine-tools.com/G10019.html

    Another thing I was told as well but I use diamond plates for my stones like Chosera's is that if you use Silicon Carbide Powder on water stones you should always stop at 2 grit's lower then what the stone is that you are trying to flatten,it avoids the Silicon Carbide particles being the same size as the stones particles and getting embedded in the stone an rusting.

     
  7. HeavyHanded

    HeavyHanded

    Jun 4, 2010
    Personally I'd stick with plates.
    I've tried a bunch of these and they are all very similar in feel to that jointer stone I sent you years ago to play around with.

    I have the 1k/6k from JKI, they work well enough - the best I have tried so far. You need an established flat bevel to start with, the 1k cannot really reset bevels with any sort of speed and even doing microbevels the 6k is not very fast.

    For the right person/job they are a good tool, I'd be willing to send you my set to try before you shell out any $, these puppies are not cheap.

    For day to day stuff, I'm using a combination Ultrsharp plate- built like a tank.
     
  8. HeavyHanded

    HeavyHanded

    Jun 4, 2010
    Global tooling has a diamond resin stone for sharpening carbide jointer stones, is about an 8k finish and runs around $30. I like it more than my 6k diamond waterstone for microbevels and some final work on wide beveled blades. It is a little slow and loads a bit but no more than some other resin diamond stones.

    I did have to boil it initially to make it hydrophilic. I couldn't see anything in the water, but suspect some sort of wax maybe was making water pool on the surface.
     
  9. Wowbagger

    Wowbagger Basic Member Basic Member

    Sep 20, 2015
    I'm surprised; for some reason, maybe price, I've always thought those were cheepy Joe wannabe stones and ignored them. Huh.
    I just looked them up and the product info says useful for ceramic knives. Have you used them for that ? 300, 600, and 1200 seems a bit coarse for ceramic from my VERY limited experience. What do I know (I'm always trying to put a polish on everything).

    PS: I finally got an Atoma 140 so I'm covered there. Flattened the heck out of my Shapton Glass 220 !
    I have a drawer full of silicon carbide powders that I picked up in Santa Fe a long time ago when I thought I was going to do more jewelry work than I have . . . I tend to go nuts in a high end tool store when given the opportunity (this was before the internet and buying on line) . . . hahaha that was when I bought my first diamond paste (up to 50,000 grit) and I wasn't even thinking knife or edge tool sharpening just polishing.

    I keep thinking someday soon I will use the silicon carbide powders for conditioning stones as mentioned by Wade7575 above.
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
  10. Wowbagger

    Wowbagger Basic Member Basic Member

    Sep 20, 2015
    Unbelievably inexpensive price.
    Thank you.
     
  11. Bill3152

    Bill3152

    234
    Nov 27, 2018
    I prefer dmts. And they do wear. I just replaced my eef this week. And my extra fine couple months ago. You could get diamond lapping film. It isn't that expensive considering your getting brand new grit every time you replace the film.
     
  12. wade7575

    wade7575

    703
    Apr 3, 2013
    For water stones I don't think I'd bother unless it's something like a Venev stone that's extremely hard or maybe a really fine grit Japanese water stone.

    The Japanese water stones in the really high grit's take forever to build up a slurry if they even build up a slurry at all,I can see using a diamond plate first then going to a Silicon Carbide and stopping at 2 grit's below the stones grit rating,it's to slow to start off and finish with Silicon Carbide Powder and I'm only doing that for my Venev stones.

     
  13. Ourorboros

    Ourorboros

    260
    Jan 23, 2017
    Thanks for the information. That sounds a lot better than what I had previously found about using acid, like how was I going to make that level?
     
  14. wade7575

    wade7575

    703
    Apr 3, 2013
    You wouldn't want to use acid on the Venev stones for sure,you must have been ready about using ferric chloride and that is the method for the Metallic Bonded CBN stones.

     
  15. HeavyHanded

    HeavyHanded

    Jun 4, 2010

    Mine was gifted to me by another forum member, I did a comparison write up a while back:
    https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/quick-combi-diamond-plate-comparison.1536426/

    Have not tried it on ceramics, but pretty sure any diamond plate can claim to be good for ceramics. Over time I have come to appreciate the plating quality on the Ultrasharp - they seem to have gotten really good bond strength without sacrificing grind speed or quality.

    There's a bit to it - the plates made for lapidary work have great bond strength but tend to not cut steel very cleanly, and many of the plates that cut steel well initially seem to not have very durable bond.
     
  16. Wowbagger

    Wowbagger Basic Member Basic Member

    Sep 20, 2015
    Nice !
     
  17. Jason B.

    Jason B. KnifeMaker / Craftsman / Service Provider Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider

    Jun 13, 2007
    Thanks everyone for the responses.

    After some thought I think I will just stick with plates at this time. I know I'm not going to find the edge quality in the lower grits like can be had from a solid plate.

    @HeavyHanded funny you should mention the ultra sharp, that and my Diafold have been my back ups. I have been thinking of the Ultra sharp and see they now offer a little broader selection of diamond plates. I have the XL diamond pattern plate and I think I might try the 8x3 continuous surface plates.
     
    mycough likes this.

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