Diamond Sprays Etc

ordawg1 said:
Anybody use this product ? http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/default.php/cPath/34_46_71 -Thanks
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rayban said:
Knifenut1013 does.:thumbup:
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IIRC he usually recommends against DMT diamond paste. Apparently the carat content is inferior to other brands. That said, obviously others do use DMT Dia-paste and are thrilled with the results. Perhaps they haven't tried other brands with higher carat ratings. I think the only difference is that products with higer carat content work faster, not necessarily better. I haven't used diamond paste myself, even though DMT Dia-paste is readily available to me, so take my rambling here with a grain of salt. I probably will have to switch from chromium oxide to diamond paste/spray on my strops when my CPM M4 blades come in soon. Anyone care to comment on how M4 responds to CrO vs. diamonds? I'm just going on a hunch and some vague recollections of CPM M4 reviews/reports.
 
I like the dmt 6 and 3 micron paste but the 1 micron is dirt slow compaired to the HA, its still much faster than chromium oxide though. The HA is better but is also twice the price and only comes in 1 micron and lower, The DMT 3 pack is the way to go unless you have the $$$ to get the HA.
 
KarlMaldensNose said:
IIRC he usually recommends against DMT diamond paste. Apparently the carat content is inferior to other brands. That said, obviously others do use DMT Dia-paste and are thrilled with the results. Perhaps they haven't tried other brands with higher carat ratings. I think the only difference is that products with higer carat content work faster, not necessarily better. I haven't used diamond paste myself, even though DMT Dia-paste is readily available to me, so take my rambling here with a grain of salt. I probably will have to switch from chromium oxide to diamond paste/spray on my strops when my CPM M4 blades come in soon. Anyone care to comment on how M4 responds to CrO vs. diamonds? I'm just going on a hunch and some vague recollections of CPM M4 reviews/reports.
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A carat is just a unit of weight like a gram or ounce. So it is just telling you how much diamonds is in the container. A higher carat content won't work any faster than a lower carat content. Just spray some more on the leather if you don't think there is enough. I guess. I still haven't figured out when to apply more spray?
 
The higher the carat count the faster and more effective the compound.
 
knifenut1013 said:
The higher the carat count the faster and more effective the compound.
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I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean the faster and more effective the compound per volume of compound? that makes since but I'm sure you get to a point where more diamonds on the strop doesn't work any better.

If there is less carat content then all you have to do is add a little more compound and there will be equal diamond content.

Like I said a carat is just a weight unit so a spray of 24 carat isn't going to work better than 2 sprays of 12 carat, they will be the same.

Edit: also if you get 24 carat in an 8 ounce container and 12 carat in a 4 ounce container then they would be exactly the same concentration. But I think it only comes in 21 carat so in that case the 12 carat actually has more diamond content per spray then the higher carat weight. But it is all the same diamond and it is going to work exactly the same for equal amonts of diamond.
 
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FlaMtnBkr said:
I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean the faster and more effective the compound per volume of compound? that makes since but I'm sure you get to a point where more diamonds on the strop doesn't work any better.

If there is less carat content then all you have to do is add a little more compound and there will be equal diamond content.

Like I said a carat is just a weight unit so a spray of 24 carat isn't going to work better than 2 sprays of 12 carat, they will be the same.

Edit: also if you get 24 carat in an 8 ounce container and 12 carat in a 4 ounce container then they would be exactly the same concentration. But I think it only comes in 21 carat so in that case the 12 carat actually has more diamond content per spray then the higher carat weight. But it is all the same diamond and it is going to work exactly the same for equal amonts of diamond.
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I'm pretty sure its by volume, the speed in which it cuts the steel is easily noticed between the different compounds I have tried and the volume is very different. DMT and amplex are 5 grams and the HA is 4oz.

Too much can happen but its mainly because of the binder, the paste or spray itself will become too thick on the surface and instead of the surface holding the diamonds as you pass the blade over the blade will float on a layer of spray or paste. You just have to find the sweet spot for the amount and it really helps if you spend the time working the diamonds into the surface when you apply.
 
When comparing diamond sprays, I e-mailed japaneseknifesharpening.com to check and see how their product compares with the Hand American one. Here is my e-mail and their response...

How many karats are your diamond spray bottles guaranteed to have?

Hi Joel,
I've been asked this question a a lot lately since a competitor advertises carat weight as a selling point to their diamond spray. The truthful answer is I don't know what our compounds contain - only how they work. To the best of my knowledge no one would actually. I say this because in my 3 month search for the best diamond spray on the market I found that there was only few major players in the industry who sold/sourced for other smaller firms and all of the major players will NOT release carat weight information just like they won't release the secret formula to which they use to mix these compounds. I can tell you that I was told by 2 diamond abrasive engineers that anyone who is selling diamond spray by listing carat weight is likely mixing cheaper diamond dust with liquid extender fluid.

Our diamond spray is what we settled on as being the best that we could find to work with felt pads and smooth leather. It is sold as "heavy concentration" because that's how it was sold to us. The most important thing to know however is that it's a "permanent suspension" that comes pre-mixed from the laboratory. Permanent suspension is what keeps the diamonds evenly dispersed within the slurry so that no matter if it sits for 20 years it will always have the same amount of diamond particles evenly dispersed and released per pump stroke as it did the day you first used it.

Our competitor (who extols the virtues of carat weight) does not use a permanent suspension which means his diamond settles and does disperse evenly. I showed an example of his diamond spray to our source engineer and I was told, "this no doubt contains diamond extender fluid" and "the sample appears to not hold it's diamond in suspension...it was seen to settle" and "diamond suspensions do not act this way unless they have been in essence - watered down.....they can not expect to be dispersed with any control". So if you have a diamond spray that needs to be "shook" to mix up the diamonds you've likely been taken advantage of because diamonds can not be mixed by simply shaking a bottle by hand - this is a fact. The process is very complex and laboratory controlled and if the diamonds are in a permanent suspension then an even dispersement will be made which I argue is more important than "carat weight" listing to ensuring that a proper amount of diamond makes it evenly out of the bottle and onto the lapping medium. In my testing (working on mid 60's Rc knives) I could not find a better diamond suspension than the one we sell. I wanted to know the carat weight to share with the customer and to make sales but I don't have this information and all I know is what works and what doesn't.

I wish that I had a way to convey this message to people buying these products. I'd like customers to be educated enough that they could know what they're buying into. Sometimes it's not best to rely on a vendors for the truth.

Thanks for your inquiry.

Regards,
Dave Martell
www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com
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Has anyone tried both products? Can anyone verify the truth claims of either the HA product or the Blue Diamond product from JapaneseKnifeSharpening?
 
I have much respect for Dave after speaking to him and for the assistance he gave me but it seems a little like he is trying to make a sale. I'm sure some of his points are valid but when he Carried HA he praised it like a liquid from the gods. Its clear the comments he is making are against his previously carried
products, he's got a business to run and I'm sure he has obtained the best compounds possible but HA is still pretty much the gold standard when it comes to finishing.

That said, I really don't think you would be able to tell the difference that his superior suspension would make, though the HA spray seems to settle at first I haven't noticed it happen in a while but I do shake it before every use.

I have a question though.....

How would you get something as heavy as diamond to stay permanently suspended in a liquid? and wouldn't that make it much more expensive?
 
Good question.

I wonder what in the world "diamond extender fluid" is and why it could be so bad.

I also wonder why they can't say how much diamond is in their product. They don't have to give carat weight necessarily. They could give any other measure.
 
I agree and it sounds to be at least partially a sales pitch.

If you put diamonds into a solution, then you should be able to measure how much diamonds goes into so much solution and be able to tell how many carats are in a bottle depending on volume. To say it can't be measured is a little ridiculous.

Also, who cares what the liquid carrier is or if the diamonds settle? You can always put more solution on your strop and then the solution evaporates/ absorbs into leather and you are left with only diamonds. That should make no difference whatsoever if the diamonds settle or what the carrier is.

And the claim that diamonds can not be mixed by hand is BS. My bottle of diamond spray I can see at the very top where the liquid gets clear for about 1/4" (No more than this so far) and as soon as you shake it, it is uniform. That claim is a little absurd.

I could see if a machine used diamond suspended in a liquid then you would not want it to settle out of solution but I don't know if there is anything like this? What does a waterjet use? I'm pretty sure it is an abrasive in water but not sure what it is?

Anyways, I think no matter what you get, once you get it on your strop you are going to be left with diamond particles to sharpen your knives with. If they are consistent in particle size and of the same type (i.e. monocrystalline) then it should work equally well. I wouldn't buy into all that hype too much and buy what seems like the best deal to you.

Edit: I just read his reply again, and I think he just lost me as a potential customer. That is completely ridiculous and he sounds like a snake oil salesman. I think the only bit of truth he said is "Sometimes it's not best to rely on a vendors for the truth." Maybe he believes what he said, but I sure don't. Diamonds aren't some magical substance with physics defying properties. Unless maybe you are a woman? :eek::foot:;)
 
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All I know for sure is that I can't prove or disprove any of the claims by either company. Unless I check the MSDS on both products and talk to a couple of the engineers myself, I don't think I will. Wading through all the claims is tedious but it can be worth it. There was a guy that, after a little digging around found out that green Micro-fine .5 micron compound bars contained Aluminum Oxide in sizes up to 400 grit.
 
knifenut1013 said:
I have much respect for Dave after speaking to him and for the assistance he gave me but it seems a little like he is trying to make a sale. I'm sure some of his points are valid but when he Carried HA he praised it like a liquid from the gods. Its clear the comments he is making are against his previously carried
products, he's got a business to run and I'm sure he has obtained the best compounds possible but HA is still pretty much the gold standard when it comes to finishing.

That said, I really don't think you would be able to tell the difference that his superior suspension would make, though the HA spray seems to settle at first I haven't noticed it happen in a while but I do shake it before every use.

I have a question though.....

How would you get something as heavy as diamond to stay permanently suspended in a liquid? and wouldn't that make it much more expensive?
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dude no offense but you don't know what you are talking about.....of course he liked ha products...it was the best diamond spray he had at the time.....he wasn't selling his own yet(the blue spray).....what if he didn't research how it was made yet?.....isn't it possible for someone to find a great product.....say how great it is and then find something better down the road......

ha...gold standard?...have u tried the blue spray dave sells....obviously not because if u did it is nowhere near the ha spray quality...it is above and beyond that......as far as the ha stuff settling....yeah mine settled and there was about 4mm of diamond at the bottom and the rest was a clear liquid.....as far as your last point of the diamond staying in suspension....that's the whole point....the company isn't gonna give u their trade secret.....and yes it is gonan be more expensive.....ever think the ha stuff isn't worth it....yeah take one bottle of diamond....ten bottles of extender.....now u got eleven bottles of great diamond spray......hence the settling.....or get a bottle of the blue spray in it's original form.....yeah maybe it is more expensive....but maybe you're not getting ripped off.....ryan
 
Dude, read my post again.

I said nothing bad about it and yes for years HA has been the gold standard in stropping supplies. No, I have not used it so I don't know how well it works but again what did I say bad about it?
 
ryan9977 said:
dude no offense but you don't know what you are talking about.....of course he liked ha products...it was the best diamond spray he had at the time.....he wasn't selling his own yet(the blue spray).....what if he didn't research how it was made yet?.....isn't it possible for someone to find a great product.....say how great it is and then find something better down the road......

ha...gold standard?...have u tried the blue spray dave sells....obviously not because if u did it is nowhere near the ha spray quality...it is above and beyond that......as far as the ha stuff settling....yeah mine settled and there was about 4mm of diamond at the bottom and the rest was a clear liquid.....as far as your last point of the diamond staying in suspension....that's the whole point....the company isn't gonna give u their trade secret.....and yes it is gonan be more expensive.....ever think the ha stuff isn't worth it....yeah take one bottle of diamond....ten bottles of extender.....now u got eleven bottles of great diamond spray......hence the settling.....or get a bottle of the blue spray in it's original form.....yeah maybe it is more expensive....but maybe you're not getting ripped off.....ryan
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Dude....no offense.....but it sounds like you drank the whole pitcher of kool aid...

Who cares if the diamonds stay in solution? It is going to be sprayed onto a strop and all that is going to be left is the diamonds! The solution makes absolutely no difference when you are spraying it onto a strop because it evaporates and is gone. And who cares if it settles a little and the concentration isn't exactly the same each spray? You just pump the little bottle until it looks like enough.

Do you even know what 'extender' is? You sound like you do but I would be willing to bet no one on this forum has heard of diamond spray extender before that quoted email. That is why with the HA you know how many carats you are getting and with the other source you don't. Sounds to me like the second source is more than likely the one who takes one bottle of diamond and 10 bottles of 'extender' sauce and end up with eleven bottles of diamond elixir. There's lots of diamonds in there. Trust us! It's HEAVY concentration dude!

And how is anyone getting ripped off if they have a big bottle of diamond spray that makes their knives ridiculously sharp? Doesn't sound like getting ripped off to me. Like I said before if it is a consistent particle size and the same type of diamond, then one should not work any better than another.
 
I am using HA diamond and have NO intention of switching.. I am getting hair splitting results with HA . I don't give a darn about having to shake my bottle:)
 
rayban said:
I didn't know what diamond spray-on was til my visit with Knifenut1013 yesterday.
We wiped off the "green stuff' I had on my 2-sided mini strop and he loaded it with 3 Micron on one side, and 1 Micron on the other.
The result is a knife that I just don't need to be any sharper.
Jason is very good about the "whys" of things, as well as showing you the "how to".
I'm sold.....I'll have an order into HandAmerica soon....:thumbup:
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Jason did a sharpening job for me one day. Took him about fifteen minutes. All the while we were just talking and sorta just hanging out. When he finished, the knife was so sharp you almost couldn't even feel it cut. He's got quite a knack for putting an edge on a knife.

Jim - Semper Fi
 
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