Diamond stone rant...

No, don't care much for them. I purchased them early on because so many on this Forum raved about them. But now they set idle. Instead I use my IM-313 as it produces the edges I like. The feed back with SiC and India stones is different. DM
 
DavidHoback said:
Mono & polycrystalline diamond abrasive's difference is not simply about the "shape". There is a "wife's tale" floating around that mono is better because it's a single crystal imbedded to the surface, where as poly have multiple, which make there holding power weaker, yadda, yadda! It's HYPE! There are actually different schools off thought on what characteristics the differences have, ARE! You can read several different from studies scientist much smarter than us, and have two entirely different schools of thought. You know what that means? No one truly knows EXACTLY! There is a bit of theory wrapped up with the truth...or TRUTHS, so to speak. The only thing for certain, is that abrasives with monocrystalline diamond particles cut much better than their polycrystalline counterparts. But it having anything to do with one being more "pointy" is a much too simplistic way of saying it. Although it can also get too difficult as well I guess. One could start the argument of which one is "self sharpening" because of fracturing, and if the fracturing is at, and because of the the cleavage planes or if fracturing occurs conchoidally! And then my dad can beat up your dad, but your mom can beat up my dad!!! And it goes on and on......
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Note that I indicated that there are multiple reasons for the performance differences between the two varieties. However, it is definitely known that abrasive grain shape is one of many factors that contribute to performance and the qualities of the net result.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Note thacated that there are multiple reasons for the performance differences between the two varieties. However, it is definitely known that abrasive grain shape is one of many factors that contribute to performance and the qualities of the net result.
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I'll give you that. You did indicate "multiple". As I expressed, and I'm sure you have seen as well, this is one of the things flooded with many "expert" opinions, thus surrounded much in theory. It's like debating whether current flows from positive to negative, or negative to positive.
 
DavidHoback said:
As I expressed, and I'm sure you have seen as well, this is one of the things flooded with many "expert" opinions, thus surrounded much in theory.
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I've looked at microscope pictures of diamond particles and silicon carbide particles. Diamonds are more pointy. I've observed the effects of diamond sharpening stones on blade steel and seen how it is different than grinding with other media like silicon carbide and aluminum oxide. I am NOT an expert in this field by any stretch, but I have studied it some and I believe my statements are factual.

It's like debating whether current flows from positive to negative, or negative to positive.
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I'm not an expert on this either, but I do have a BSEE, so I know something about electricity. Current actually flows from negative to positive at the particle level. But it's rather convenient to think of "positive particles" going the other way so the math doesn't have so many minus signs in it. So we use "positive current flow" as a standard. It's mathematically equivalent. You get the same final answer either way, so it's a valid model; just not physically accurate.

Brian.
 
Gaston444 said:
Same here except for in the field light touch ups... Big issue is stones lose their flatness when heavily used, this being particularly true of even the best coarse ones after some years: Some coarse stones lose their shape very rapidly. They need sanding down to a new flat. Diamond hones go smoother quite fast, but "level out" to a somewhat useable coarseness, and they absolutely never go out of flat... Most stainless steels almost require Diamond hones for great results, while diamonds are almost too aggressive for Carbon steels who get eaten so rapidly it is almost like the steel is "disassembled" by them...
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I beg your pardon?? Most stainless steels REQUIRE diamond sharpening media? Are you aware that until recent years, stainless steel used for knives was soft & weak! It was not used in any quality blade. The first serous stainless candidate was 440C, which was actually classified as a "super steel". 440C is beyond common these days. Although a quality material capable of making for a great blade, I would hardly call the use of diamond media a NECESSARY sharpening tool for it. Likewise, given a steel such as 1095, which is about as basic a CARBON steel as they get, and insinuating that a diamond stone will almost "disassemble" it because it is being eaton so aggressively, is just as absurd. It's a good idea to do more research, and reading before making statements with little merit.

I believe what you are mistaking for stainless are the high ALLOY steels, which can be "stainless" or "carbon". Remember the only thing separating the two is the amount of Chromium. Some authorities classify a stainless having at least 10.5% Chromium. Some say 11% or 11.5%, and some attest there must be 12% or more to be a true stainless. Whichever you follow, one thing is true: The more Chromium a steel has, the more corrosion resistance it will possess. Thus, it will be more "stainless"! There are many stainless steels which actually have higher amounts of carbon than some CARBON STEELS! Take the aforementioned 1095, and one of my two favorites- CPM20CV. 1095 has .95% carbon, where CPM20CV Tool Steel contains 1.9%-almost twice as much! But more importantly, it also contains 20% Chromium, which automatically classifies it as stainless.

Alloys such as Vanadium and Tungsten are when diamond sharpening media is a God send.
 
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"I'm not an expert on this either, but I do have a BSEE, so I know something about electricity. Current actually flows from negative to positive at the particle level. But it's rather convenient to think of "positive particles" going the other way so the math doesn't have so many minus signs in it. So we use "positive current flow" as a standard. It's mathematically equivalent. You get the same final answer either way, so it's a valid model; just not physically accurate."


You can't call it a physically & accurate valid model! We have only theory to prove it either way. And you do know that the "POPULAR" belief on it has changed through the years, don't you? Math can be used to "PROVE" most anything. People have been using it for hundreds upon hundreds of years to DISPROVE the existence of God. And many believe they "Have the Equation"! I, however, will trust my faith on this. Theory.... Nothing more. And my dad can beat up your dad!
 
DavidHoback said:
I beg your pardon?? Most stainless steels REQUIRE diamond sharpening media? Are you aware that until recent years, stainless steel used for knives was soft & weak! It was not used in any quality blade. The first serous stainless candidate was 440C, which was actually classified as a "super steel". 440C is beyond common these days. Although a quality material capable of making for a great blade, I would hardly call the use of diamond media a NECESSARY sharpening tool for it. Likewise, given a steel such as 1095, which is about as basic a CARBON steel as they get, and insinuating that a diamond stone will almost "disassemble" it because it is being eaton so aggressively, is just as absurd. It's a good idea to do more research, and reading before making statements with little merit.

.
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Sometimes I really have to wonder about people's observation abilities... I don't understand what you are harping about: Stainless being soft until recently? What kind of utter drivel is this?

In any kind of bare bones quality knife (above the gas station stuff), especially thirty ago, cheap stainless knives were often brittle and over-hardened, like for instance the old Buck knives, which were known for snapping, although far from alone in this: The cheap stainless knives often had quite good edge-holding, but were notorious bears to sharpen on stones, and if you had any experience with this you would know cheap low-end stainless of 30 years ago will routinely mop the floor with the edge-holding of today's thousand dollars customs, as I had the personal experience with the likes of a recent RJ Martin in S30V, and several others in CPM 154...

The best edge holding I have ever seen is almost always in old stainless knives of thirty years ago, particularly anything made in Seki City, where the steel is smelted cleaner and with a finer grain than anywhere else... Who cares about the percentage of Carbon or the steel designation... I would say those will tell you very little...

I always go out of my way to find older Japanese made knives, particularly Al Mars in lowly Aus-6, and I especially love Japanese blades that just say "440" without any of the useless A, B or C nonsense... I seek those out because the source is what matters, not what is claimed about the steel...

The worst steels I have ever used where not Carbons, but those dreadful CPM steels like S30V and CPM 154, which at thin 30 inclusive or less angles will micro-fold their apex at the first hard contact with wood, while a Randall Model 12 in 440 (B or C no matter, according to Randall's foreman) will hold the apex straight for thousands of chops...

I would suggest you do less reading of industry-driven theories, and more actual cutting with genuinely sharp blades, not the 40 degree inclusive nonsense...

Gaston
 
You have a dreadfully small amount of knowledge my friend. You really just need to stop now, to keep from sounding any more rediculous. Oh please continue telling us about how "hard" & "super strong" all the 420j stainless knives of the past are! You are saying Japan has "cleaner" smelting and comparing aus6 to the top steels we have now? HUH?? And you're talking about 154cm & s30v? Umm, yeah...they are both old steels to me. Nothing new there.

I suggest you study up on who you are debating with before spreading nonsense and mis-information. Or continue calling a knife maker a know nothing "NEWB". Good luck!
 
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Not a very productive thread, and the worst part is many of don't know how to form your thoughts into paragraphs.
Very unreadable on many levels.

Russ
 
Looks like that would be used the same way the syderco jig is.. I think the stone is placed at whatever angle he wants whether it's 10 or 15 degrees and he just runs his knife straight down..I think I could be wrong though
 
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