Did I just waste my money on the EdgePro Apex?

[hardheart]

If you can make do with 6" stones, the DMT double sided diasharps are half that price at knivesplus. You could get get extra coarse, coarse, fine, and extra fine on two plates for just under $75 before shipping charges. Then add a chromium oxide loaded strop for $15 from the same place.

 

[Noctis3880]

If you're going from 1000grit to 4000grit, it will take a bit more time than going from 1000-1500-2000-4000, but in the end, they will both have the same result and level of sharpness, but taking care of 2 extra stones will take up more time aswell.

The 30000grit stone from Shapton is expensive, but there are cheaper alternatives, some .5 micron CrO on cardboard would work nearly as good and it is equivalent to 30000grit in Japanese waterstones, it would only cost 10bucks for the compound and a couple bucks if you decide to use leather rather than cardboard.

Well, I've heard that "jumping" too far in grits will cause excessive wear on the stones. Though I guess it would only be noticable after years of use.

Same with using a 30,000 grit stone as opposed to CrO, the stone will simply outlast the compound(and the leather). Though it might be a lifetime before one notices. Of course, I'm a bit curious as to how CrO hardness compares with the stone's abrasives.

It was said that vanadium carbides(a fairly common carbide in modern middle to high end steels) is harder than CrO, and that the abrasive simply removes the metal around the carbides without touching the carbides themselves, giving the steel a cloudy appearance and leaving microserrations along the edge.

Which is why I was considering simply buying a set of diamond compounds(5 5-gram syringes for $25 in varying sizes). It'll polish faster and won't be stopped by high alloy steels, plus I can put it on a cloth and polish the whole blade itself. Of course, ZDP-189 is the only high hardness steel I have, so I was wondering if I wasn't simply wasting my time trying to put so fine an edge on knives that can't even take that keen edge.

 

[cotdt]

Which is why I was considering simply buying a set of diamond compounds(5 5-gram syringes for $25 in varying sizes). It'll polish faster and won't be stopped by high alloy steels, plus I can put it on a cloth and polish the whole blade itself. Of course, ZDP-189 is the only high hardness steel I have, so I was wondering if I wasn't simply wasting my time trying to put so fine an edge on knives that can't even take that keen edge.

The AlOx stones can sharpen ZDP-189 despite it containing carbides harder than the AlOx. It acts as a finer stone basically. It can sharpen S90V as well, which is harder to sharpen than ZDP-189. AlOx stones are less messy and leave a finer scratch pattern than diamond because they are softer.

I'm not sure about ZDP-189 taking a keener edge than other steels. It just doesn't require 50,000 grit to acheive max keenness like the other steels do, but it's actually the low alloy steels like 52100 or 1095 that take the keenest, smoothest edges.

 

[gary jp4]

Here, Here.

 

[Sword and Shield]

Still waiting for a tip on how to compensate for the difference in angles caused by resting the blade on its backbevel.

While I'm sure it's rewarding to do freehand sharpening, I'm also equally as sure that it will cost considerable time and money.
The cost would include replacing the knives you break while practicing(I'm sure there's also a significant difference between a cheap $5 knife and a $100 folding knife), and replacing the stones themselves.

Breaking a knife? Seriously?

I've sharpened freehand for nearly 20 years, and never broken one, even when I was just learning as a Cub Scout.

As for cost, my most used stone (a Norton JB6 coarse/fine) cost $17.59 at the hardware store. Sticker's still on the box. My pocket sharpener was a buck. Home Depot/Lowe's have oilstones aplenty, and that's all you really need.

A couple stones and a strop, and I can get edges to shine like a mirror. Testing myself the other day, I intentionally killed the edge on a Rough Rider scout by cutting into a pumice block. Took less than five minutes to reshape the edge, ten to get it up to what I like for sharpness, fifteen for lifting hair off my arm without touching skin. Fifteen minutes. That's it.

 

[Noctis3880]

The AlOx stones can sharpen ZDP-189 despite it containing carbides harder than the AlOx. It acts as a finer stone basically. It can sharpen S90V as well, which is harder to sharpen than ZDP-189. AlOx stones are less messy and leave a finer scratch pattern than diamond because they are softer.

I'm not sure about ZDP-189 taking a keener edge than other steels. It just doesn't require 50,000 grit to acheive max keenness like the other steels do, but it's actually the low alloy steels like 52100 or 1095 that take the keenest, smoothest edges.

Well, that sort of cinches the point. Aluminum Oxide would cut much slower in comparison to diamond abrasives of the same grit.
Though the finer scratch pattern became obvious when I put a mirror edge on my Shallot with S110V yesterday using a 1,000 grit waterstone on my EdgePro(I went through the rouge loaded strops and 1/10 micron diamond spray, but all that only removed most of the micro serrations).

I've heard that above all else, the hardness of the blade will determine how keen an edge it can take(which is why properly heat treated tool steels are known for their keen edges). The high carbide content simply allows a softer steel to have more wear resistance.

Breaking a knife? Seriously?

I've sharpened freehand for nearly 20 years, and never broken one, even when I was just learning as a Cub Scout.

As for cost, my most used stone (a Norton JB6 coarse/fine) cost $17.59 at the hardware store. Sticker's still on the box. My pocket sharpener was a buck. Home Depot/Lowe's have oilstones aplenty, and that's all you really need.

A couple stones and a strop, and I can get edges to shine like a mirror. Testing myself the other day, I intentionally killed the edge on a Rough Rider scout by cutting into a pumice block. Took less than five minutes to reshape the edge, ten to get it up to what I like for sharpness, fifteen for lifting hair off my arm without touching skin. Fifteen minutes. That's it.

Well, maybe not BREAKING a knife, but severely damaging it. I can certainly imagine that happening with a high hardness knife(HRC65+) that's chipped, and you try to grind it down, but you get sloppy with the coarse 120 grit waterstone and you chip the blade even more.

I also don't get the thing where you pop hairs off your arm. I've tried it with the hairs on my leg(arm hairs are more like arm "fuzz") and I've never seen it happen. I don't know if it's because my knife isn't all that razor sharp or if my leg hairs don't have the right "texture" for that kind of cut. My edges certainly push cuts through paper pretty easily(no sidewards "slicing" motion), but this kinda makes me want to take the edge further.

I'm not too keen on the idea of investing time and money into it unless I can make money off of it. While there are cheap alternatives, I have this really annoying habit of going after the "best" of everything. If the Shapton stones have any improvement whatsoever over Norton stones, I'd want it.

 

[cotdt]

I've heard that above all else, the hardness of the blade will determine how keen an edge it can take(which is why properly heat treated tool steels are known for their keen edges). The high carbide content simply allows a softer steel to have more wear resistance.

I also don't get the thing where you pop hairs off your arm. I've tried it with the hairs on my leg(arm hairs are more like arm "fuzz") and I've never seen it happen. I don't know if it's because my knife isn't all that razor sharp or if my leg hairs don't have the right "texture" for that kind of cut. My edges certainly push cuts through paper pretty easily(no sidewards "slicing" motion), but this kinda makes me want to take the edge further.

If it's not hair popping, then that means that the knife can get sharper. Try getting a peice of your hair and slicing it down the middle in its entirety (whittling hair). If your knife can't do that, then it can still be sharper.

The finest edge that any steel can get is 0.4 microns thick. This does not depend on hardness. A steel that is too soft would roll when such an edge touches anything, but anything over 56 hrc should up on cutting soft objects.

 

[Noctis3880]

If it's not hair popping, then that means that the knife can get sharper. Try getting a peice of your hair and slicing it down the middle in its entirety (whittling hair). If your knife can't do that, then it can still be sharper.

The finest edge that any steel can get is 0.4 microns thick. This does not depend on hardness. A steel that is too soft would roll when such an edge touches anything, but anything over 56 hrc should up on cutting soft objects.

Well, my Shallot should be at HRC59 at least. My BM 943 should be at HRC57. My Endura ought to be at HRC 63-64.

I assume hair whittling is supposed to be done freehand or "hanging" the hair in the air and cutting it? Because I can easily "whittle" it while resting it on a flat surface.

I'm not sure what micron finish I get with stropping. My diamond spray is 1/10 of a micron, but that won't matter much if I don't have enough "grits" in between my final finish and the diamond finish.

I typically prefer to go with my strops after I finish with my 1,000 grit stone on my EdgePro. I then go through a series of strops: Green--->White--->Blue--->Red Rouge
After Red Rouge I go to my diamond spray loaded strop. The problem is that I'm not too sure how fine the finish with the Red Rouge is compared to the diamond spray. If the finish is too rough, then the diamond spray probably isn't doing anything to the edge.

I'm currently considering buying a 12,000 grit Shapton waterstone and 5 syringes of diamond compound in sizes 1/10, 1/8, 1/4, 1/2, and 3/4 microns......Or maybe just the Norton Waterstone Starter Kit: 220/1000 grit stone, 4000/8000 grit stone, SiC flattening stone for $115 on Amazon <_<

The price difference($118 for one stone in one grit VS $115 for 2 stones with 4 grits and a tool to maintain them) makes me suspicious to say the least. Norton stones are sold as just "waterstones" while Shapton constantly throws the word "ceramic professional series waterstone". It makes me wonder if there's a big gap in quality between the two somewhat like the gap in quality you'd expect between a $100 waterstone and a cheap $5 aluminum oxide stone you buy from Chinatown. What to do...what to do...

 

[hardheart]

you could skip the blue and red, they don't cut hardened steel

 

[cotdt]

vassili's video of whittling hair:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZZa1Ng5bzY

you can actually do this at around 800 grit on the edge pro, and the knife gets even sharper as you polish.

i would pick Shapton's newer Glasstones over their older Pro series, if that is the direction you want to go. For me, some coarser DMTs are a must for flattening stones and reprofiling blades.

 

[Sword and Shield]

Well, maybe not BREAKING a knife, but severely damaging it. I can certainly imagine that happening with a high hardness knife(HRC65+) that's chipped, and you try to grind it down, but you get sloppy with the coarse 120 grit waterstone and you chip the blade even more.

I also don't get the thing where you pop hairs off your arm. I've tried it with the hairs on my leg(arm hairs are more like arm "fuzz") and I've never seen it happen. I don't know if it's because my knife isn't all that razor sharp or if my leg hairs don't have the right "texture" for that kind of cut. My edges certainly push cuts through paper pretty easily(no sidewards "slicing" motion), but this kinda makes me want to take the edge further.

I'm not too keen on the idea of investing time and money into it unless I can make money off of it. While there are cheap alternatives, I have this really annoying habit of going after the "best" of everything. If the Shapton stones have any improvement whatsoever over Norton stones, I'd want it.

Chipping a knife severely during sharpening is something I've never seen. It can happen on the Sharpmaker, I'm told, since the stones are sharply cornered, but I've never done such with a stone. I've sharpened out my fair share of high-RC blades- mostly planer blades, with one extremely thin O1 blade thrown in.

Popping hairs comes down in part to physiology. I can do it with the hair on my left arm- it got mostly singed off a few years ago and is nice and soft. Anywhere else, forget it- my hair kills razor blades like nobody's business.

 

[Noctis3880]

vassili's video of whittling hair:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZZa1Ng5bzY

you can actually do this at around 800 grit on the edge pro, and the knife gets even sharper as you polish.

i would pick Shapton's newer Glasstones over their older Pro series, if that is the direction you want to go. For me, some coarser DMTs are a must for flattening stones and reprofiling blades.

I was actually curious about those and was wondering what the difference was compared to the regular stones.

Still, I'm not too sure I want to pour out my whole wallet for the thing. I figure maybe the DMT DuoSharp Plus Kit on sharpeningsupplies.com would be a good bargain at $150 for 4 grits(Extra Coarse/Coarse, Fine/Extra Fine). And if I feel the need for it, I could expand to XX Coarse or XX Fine afterwards.

 

[Splat]

Get DMT's Diasharp stones instead. I just got mine today and already I like them a LOT more than the polka-dotted surface of the Diafolds or Duosharps. Did I mention they're also cheaper?

 

[Noctis3880]

Get DMT's Diasharp stones instead. I just got mine today and already I like them a LOT more than the polka-dotted surface of the Diafolds or Duosharps. Did I mention they're also cheaper?

True, but I think that has more to do with the size(6 inches long) than anything.
The polka dots are also useful for making sure the metal particles don't clog up the diamonds and messing up the sharpening.

At least on the EdgePro diamond stone, I definitely notice the black swath on the stone. Since the stone is relatively small, cleanup is fairly easy by squeezing some water on it and dabbing it lightly with a cloth. With the big stone I'd imagine you'd have to rinse it out with lots of water every few swipes.

 

[Roger999]

Well, I've heard that "jumping" too far in grits will cause excessive wear on the stones. Though I guess it would only be noticable after years of use.

Same with using a 30,000 grit stone as opposed to CrO, the stone will simply outlast the compound(and the leather). Though it might be a lifetime before one notices. Of course, I'm a bit curious as to how CrO hardness compares with the stone's abrasives.

It was said that vanadium carbides(a fairly common carbide in modern middle to high end steels) is harder than CrO, and that the abrasive simply removes the metal around the carbides without touching the carbides themselves, giving the steel a cloudy appearance and leaving microserrations along the edge.

Which is why I was considering simply buying a set of diamond compounds(5 5-gram syringes for $25 in varying sizes). It'll polish faster and won't be stopped by high alloy steels, plus I can put it on a cloth and polish the whole blade itself. Of course, ZDP-189 is the only high hardness steel I have, so I was wondering if I wasn't simply wasting my time trying to put so fine an edge on knives that can't even take that keen edge.

1 small block of .5micron CrO will last longer than my lifetime and cost 1/30th of the price of the Shapton 30k grit stone, I don't actually use leather for hand stropping, I prefer cardboard.

I've used CrO on a strop with S30V plenty of times with great results:

That's after using .5 micron CrO as the finishing grit on a CPM S30V blade.

 

[hardheart]

True, but I think that has more to do with the size(6 inches long) than anything.
The polka dots are also useful for making sure the metal particles don't clog up the diamonds and messing up the sharpening.

At least on the EdgePro diamond stone, I definitely notice the black swath on the stone. Since the stone is relatively small, cleanup is fairly easy by squeezing some water on it and dabbing it lightly with a cloth. With the big stone I'd imagine you'd have to rinse it out with lots of water every few swipes.

There really is no issue with clogging. If it is a great concern, you can sharpen in the sink with the water running over the stone. I use my non-perforated diamonds dry without issue, just a quick wipe on occasion & rinse when I'm done. The perforated surface does create the opportunity to catch the point in a hole and possible damage the edge lightly near the tip. The Shaptons aren't perforated, you'd have the same concern as a continuous surface diamond plate like the dia-sharps.