From what I have read and heard, they did NOT carry double bladed daggers. What they usually carried, as has been said on here already, were cheap users, like butcher knives. These were folks living off the land, many with very little money. They made due with what they had, and kitchen knives were always available. They'd put one in a sheath on them and go to work. They didn't use daggers for defense either, as that is what their guns were for. Not much a knife can do against an attacking animal, and when it came to fighting another person, they simply used what was on them. Again, this is what I have read and heard, so don't quote me on this, but a lot about the mountain man is produced by Hollywood.
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
Did mountain people really use daggers for everyday utility?
- Thread starter bushcraft
- Start date
I'd hardly buy the "dagger as defense tool". As already pointed while dagger is more defense oriented than any other knife it is still overall quite poor compared to full size item and would not be better enough than a standard knife to justify the redundancy for practical oriented people like mountain men.
Last edited:
From what I could see when touring the Mountain man museums in Colorado and Nebraska, no.
Most of what I saw was of the kitchen butcher knife pattern, with a smattering of the smaller French Cartouche pattern. The very few double edge blades were of the Blackfoot dag pattern, and they were trade items.
The individual mountain man was a busines enterprise. He was a tradesman out to make a proffit, and his gear was solid practical workmens tools. When he re-suppied he got plain butcher patterns by I.Wilson, and other Englsih brands, and very late in the beaver trade, the Russells Green River knife. It was a practical business to get a couple of the same pattern and as one was worn out or broken, another was got out and put in the same sheath. Less labor that way. When I was at Bent's Old Fort in Colorado, there was some re-enactors there, and one of them explained how a lot of them did that. It was more expediant to make one sheath for a pattern of a knife and have backups for use or trade.
For weapon use, they had thier rifle, and some had a pistol that took the same size ball as the rifle, which made for less logistics to handle, ammo wise. To back up the single shot firearms tomahawks were used, and I'd guess whatever knife they had on them. I imagine a Green River dadley shoved into a breadbasket was as attention getting as a out and out dagger.
Most of what I saw was of the kitchen butcher knife pattern, with a smattering of the smaller French Cartouche pattern. The very few double edge blades were of the Blackfoot dag pattern, and they were trade items.
The individual mountain man was a busines enterprise. He was a tradesman out to make a proffit, and his gear was solid practical workmens tools. When he re-suppied he got plain butcher patterns by I.Wilson, and other Englsih brands, and very late in the beaver trade, the Russells Green River knife. It was a practical business to get a couple of the same pattern and as one was worn out or broken, another was got out and put in the same sheath. Less labor that way. When I was at Bent's Old Fort in Colorado, there was some re-enactors there, and one of them explained how a lot of them did that. It was more expediant to make one sheath for a pattern of a knife and have backups for use or trade.
For weapon use, they had thier rifle, and some had a pistol that took the same size ball as the rifle, which made for less logistics to handle, ammo wise. To back up the single shot firearms tomahawks were used, and I'd guess whatever knife they had on them. I imagine a Green River dadley shoved into a breadbasket was as attention getting as a out and out dagger.
- Joined
- Jun 1, 2008
- Messages
- 308
I would like to add "The Knife in Homespun America" book
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(00byynycew25xx55qmyhkn55))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=4&subId=22&styleId=62&partNum=BOOK-KHA
It's a good book and covers this topic well.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(00byynycew25xx55qmyhkn55))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=4&subId=22&styleId=62&partNum=BOOK-KHA
It's a good book and covers this topic well.
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2006
- Messages
- 7,021
Maybe Doc Canada will chime in, I believe he was around..
Where are you GP???
Can he remember that far back? Is he the one that went back for the navigating gear?
Protourist's inference is correct - my memory sucks! That's why both your names went in THE BOOK!
Early peoples here carried switchblades, which were subsequently outlawed after the RCMP director viewed West Side Story for the first time.
Doc
Mistwalker
Gold Member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2007
- Messages
- 19,035
I would think that as far as history goes the introduction of steel to this country came from the explorers who came across the sea. These men were warriors by nature not bushcrafters so naturally there were daggers in the early mix. The Europeans had known for many years that if you know in advance that your knife will be called upon for fighting a dagger is a great choice....much more efficient for stabbing and extrication than a butcher type knife. Being as there was so much fighting in the early days it only stands to reason that daggers would become relatively wide spread.
I know for me personally my introduction to fixed blades was a German made hunting knife with a 3 inch blade. But being a history buff early in life, in my early teens....when I was still more of an "invader" to the woods, and most of my teachings were from a military perspective... my chosen knife for a few years was a Gerber Mark II with a double 50/50 edge and I got by just fine in the bush. It would be some years later when I was trying to become more at home in the bush that I would realize that I liked knives like the issue pilot's survival knife and my old Old Timer Woodsman better for what would eventually come to be known here as "bushcrafting".
I know for me personally my introduction to fixed blades was a German made hunting knife with a 3 inch blade. But being a history buff early in life, in my early teens....when I was still more of an "invader" to the woods, and most of my teachings were from a military perspective... my chosen knife for a few years was a Gerber Mark II with a double 50/50 edge and I got by just fine in the bush. It would be some years later when I was trying to become more at home in the bush that I would realize that I liked knives like the issue pilot's survival knife and my old Old Timer Woodsman better for what would eventually come to be known here as "bushcrafting".
Offhand, besides the Indian Dag referenced on the first page, the only other somewhat but not daggerish knife used for outdoor work was the "Russell Dadley" pattern. Here is a modern version-
http://www.knivesaustralia.com.au/wr830-dadley.jpg .
Sure, there were double edged daggers, dirks, and Bowies offered, but woodsmen of the time did not fool themselves that these were outdoor knives. It was understood that these were fighting knives.
Honestly, before Webster Marble invented the American hunting knife market, a common person made do with what were the common butcher or household patterns of the day for outdoor work. Sometimes a company would modify them with a small pewter guard.
http://www.knivesaustralia.com.au/wr830-dadley.jpg .
Sure, there were double edged daggers, dirks, and Bowies offered, but woodsmen of the time did not fool themselves that these were outdoor knives. It was understood that these were fighting knives.
Honestly, before Webster Marble invented the American hunting knife market, a common person made do with what were the common butcher or household patterns of the day for outdoor work. Sometimes a company would modify them with a small pewter guard.
I don't know with any certainty what they used, but a dagger seems much more difficult to make than a single edged knife. With my few attempts at knife making, a butcher knife type were the result. I'd guess that would be the natural knife type for most people with hand tools.
Mistwalker
Gold Member
- Joined
- Dec 22, 2007
- Messages
- 19,035
I'd say a lot of the early daggers here here simply made from broken sword ends.
Did mountain people really use daggers for everyday utility?
I read that mountain men used to carry daggers as main belt knives.
Is it true? or is it because they had nothing better?
Would the bark river mountain man dagger be a good utility knife?
Isn't two edges better than one?
P.S.
That is based on a Howard James/KnifeCrafters 1940's design. It was originally offered as a thowing knife. BRKT just sized it up a bit.
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2006
- Messages
- 7,250
I think that shankin' folks was considered "everyday utility" back in the day. For stabbin', stickin', scalpin', bleedin', disembowlin' etc., a dag had you pretty well covered.
I am sure daggers were used by some
But from what I have seen in manny museums and historical writings I dont think they were as common as tomahawks, butcher and scalping knives
A bayonet was a form of a dagger and it seems that they were ditched for the other tools I mentioned above by rogers rangers
However, I know some highlanders carried a dirk although they were not known for going in the woods like the rangers did.
But from what I have seen in manny museums and historical writings I dont think they were as common as tomahawks, butcher and scalping knives
A bayonet was a form of a dagger and it seems that they were ditched for the other tools I mentioned above by rogers rangers
However, I know some highlanders carried a dirk although they were not known for going in the woods like the rangers did.
I skinned a big hog once with a double bladed knife and found it pretty convenient to be able to use both sides and not have to sharpen it as often. I did have to be really careful not to cut myself though and the blade shape didn't have a sweeping edge like a skinner knife. I've since gone back to my traditional hunting knives.
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2008
- Messages
- 9,491
Protourist's inference is correct - my memory sucks! That's why both your names went in THE BOOK!
.
Doc
Yeah but you have to remember where you put the book
LOL, that is quite believable
I agree that two edges are better than one..... but only if they are on two separate knives.
I've had a double edged knife and a double-bit axe, but I simply would not choose to use them if I had access to suitable single edged tools.
I guess there have been very good reasons for making double-edged tools. However I can't think of any significant advantage for me with the way I use these tools.
If I did a lot of pig hunting with dogs, I might be tempted to try a double edged knife. But even then safety is a big issue. It is far better to have one blunt edge when the pig is lunging around and the dogs might jump in close at any time. I've found that a sharp single edged knife still slides into a hog with relative ease.
A single edged axe can be used to drive stakes etc, and there is much less chance of cutting something you don't want to cut when swinging a single-bit axe.
Single-edged tools can also be easier to make sheaths for. And how does one properly 'baton' using a dagger?
I've had a double edged knife and a double-bit axe, but I simply would not choose to use them if I had access to suitable single edged tools.
I guess there have been very good reasons for making double-edged tools. However I can't think of any significant advantage for me with the way I use these tools.
If I did a lot of pig hunting with dogs, I might be tempted to try a double edged knife. But even then safety is a big issue. It is far better to have one blunt edge when the pig is lunging around and the dogs might jump in close at any time. I've found that a sharp single edged knife still slides into a hog with relative ease.
A single edged axe can be used to drive stakes etc, and there is much less chance of cutting something you don't want to cut when swinging a single-bit axe.
Single-edged tools can also be easier to make sheaths for. And how does one properly 'baton' using a dagger?
Codger_64
Moderator
- Joined
- Oct 8, 2004
- Messages
- 62,324
I "played Mountain Man" back years ago, and the myth of the Green River knives was popular then, promoted by Russell & Harrington for many, many years. It was pointed out to me by a friend who had done his homework that it wasn't possible for the trappers of the era 1825-1840 to use the Russell Green River knives. Mr Levine confirms it....
Yes, they did use English butcher patterns and some knives produced for the Indian trade (cheap). Don't know about double edged daggers.