Did my knife get sharper or duller?

[Noctis3880]

Okay, so I just finished my knife on the slotted paper wheels + white rouge, it push cuts paper with ease, giving it a real "polished" feel.

Then I take that knife and strop it on a leather bench strop + Dupont 0.25 micron diamond spray I got from Japanese Knife Sharpening. The thing is, the edge I get has a harder time push cutting paper. It does tend to pop/split/whittle my leg hairs much easier than the edge from the paper wheels. The edge doesn't feel as "polished", it's like the stropping adds micro serrations on the edge.

Now granted, the edge is still sharp and won't have a problem neatly slicing a tomato like a hot knife through butter. But the thing is, I spent $80 total for the strop, and would like to know that I'm moving forward rather than backwards. My edge angle isn't exactly perfect, and I never seem to be able to get a mirror edge outside of using my EdgePro, but I'm not entirely sure that could dull the edge so severely unless I'm really botching up the angle. I more or less only use the weight of the knife itself when stropping.

 

[chococrazy]

Sometimes you CAN over polish. Yes, it's possible. To the point where it's so sharp it's basically a straight razer. Great for whittling hair, but not very practical for much else.


Keep stropping, but hit the shoulder a little more and you'll be gliding through everything :O. Try to get a mirror, as it reduces friction and in the end result will be a laser knife.

 

[Noctis3880]

Sometimes you CAN over polish. Yes, it's possible. To the point where it's so sharp it's basically a straight razer. Great for whittling hair, but not very practical for much else.


Keep stropping, but hit the shoulder a little more and you'll be gliding through everything :O. Try to get a mirror, as it reduces friction and in the end result will be a laser knife.

The shoulder?

 

[Jason B.]

Not properly following grit progression is especially bad at such high grits. The white compound is greater than 1 micron, and more like 3-5 microns. Jumping ahead too far with such fine compounds very easily over polishes the edge, but your not really over polishing as you are polishing the peaks of the larger scratch pattern. At the edge larger "teetth" are surface polished, this is why it becomes sharper but not the way you were expecting and also the same reason it feels toothy.

0.25 micron 100,000 mesh is extremely fine and usually to fine for most steels unless they have blades as thin as straight razors. At minimal a 1 and 0.5 micron compound would be needed before the .25, you need to be at a mirror finish long before 0.25.

When done in proper order a 0.25 edge no longer feels sharp because you CAN'T feel it. What you do feel is a very smooth edge that wants to make one hair magically become two and if you rest your finger on the edge with any pressure it "bites" into your skin.

Looks good and cuts hairs and skin well but fails at nearly everything else. Also the slightest mistake can screw up the whole thing and leave you with a rounded polished edge.

 

[Noctis3880]

Not properly following grit progression is especially bad at such high grits. The white compound is greater than 1 micron, and more like 3-5 microns. Jumping ahead too far with such fine compounds very easily over polishes the edge, but your not really over polishing as you are polishing the peaks of the larger scratch pattern. At the edge larger "teetth" are surface polished, this is why it becomes sharper but not the way you were expecting and also the same reason it feels toothy.

0.25 micron 100,000 mesh is extremely fine and usually to fine for most steels unless they have blades as thin as straight razors. At minimal a 1 and 0.5 micron compound would be needed before the .25, you need to be at a mirror finish long before 0.25.

When done in proper order a 0.25 edge no longer feels sharp because you CAN'T feel it. What you do feel is a very smooth edge that wants to make one hair magically become two and if you rest your finger on the edge with any pressure it "bites" into your skin.

Looks good and cuts hairs and skin well but fails at nearly everything else. Also the slightest mistake can screw up the whole thing and leave you with a rounded polished edge.

Something just seems a little "off" still. If you put a finer finish on an edge that already push cuts paper, how would it become less polished?

I also made a previous attempt to progress from the wheel to 3 micron DMT paste, to 1 micron DMT paste, and then the 0.25 micron spray. The results were the same.

Considering where I bought the strop and spray from(JapaneseKnifeSharpening), I assume that kind of edge was meant for soft fruits and vegetables and boneless meats.

The knives in question is a Tojiro Flash Paring Knife with VG-10 at 62 HRC, the other is my Spyderco Manix 2 with CTS-XHP at 60-62 HRC. Both have edge angles at about 10-15 degrees(don't know exact number) per side. So I don't think the ability to take a fine edge is in question here.

I've never experienced these results before, and the only new factors are:
1) The Paper Wheel.
2) The leather strop and 0.25 micron diamond spray.

I haven't tested the edge coming off my other strops yet, but the leather strop I used for the 0.25 micron diamond spray is significantly different than my other leather strops, with a different texture.

 

[Jason B.]

Sounds like a very expensive strop too.

I think your still having a hard time grasping how fine of a abrasive you are working with. 1 micron=15,000 grit 0.25 micron= 100,000 grit. Once finished a edge at that lever no longer has teeth and your literally making the edge smooth as glass.

At max I go to 0.5 with 99.9999% of my finished edges being at 1 micron. Any finer than 1 micron and I call it "just for fun" as it does little if anything for performance.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

I also strop at a slightly lower angle than what I think the knife is sharpened at. This hits the shoulder more but the flex of the leather is like adding a few degrees so you hopefully hit right at the edge and not too high to round it off. Also, if I aim for a lower angle when I do mess up and hold a higher angle, hopefully I don't round the edge off. I figure I would rather have half of my passes too low and half right at the edge, than half right at the edge and the other half too high and round off the edge.

Using 1 micron spray, and even 0.5 micron after that, on a knife that will shave easily makes a big jump in sharpness for me. I don't follow the grit progression knifenut recommends because I don't have the proper grits to do so. I'm sure I don't get as sharp as he does, but the strop does make blades sharper. I have paper wheels as well and stropping after them almost always makes the knife at least a little more sharp. I am using diamond spray from hand american although it shouldn't make much difference.

In my hands the paper wheels take off a little more metal than I like. My EDC knives that I was sharpening a lot, probably once a week for 6 months, have had quite a bit of metal removed. So I mainly use the edge pro now and only use the wheels on cheaper beater knives and cheap kitchen knives. They are great for getting a really dull knife really sharp occasionally. But when you want to have your knife as sharp as possible all the time it really starts to add up for me.

 

[singularity35]

Looks good and cuts hairs and skin well but fails at nearly everything else.

Any finer than 1 micron and I call it "just for fun" as it does little if anything for performance.

What do you mean "fails at nearly everything else"? does this level of polish actually mean that a knife cuts less better? are you saying that this in effect results in a duller(cuts less) edge?

 

[richard j]

yesterday i talked to a member who spent (he said wasted) almost $500. on numerous systems before finally getting a set of paper wheels which he said is the best purchase he made. the paper buffing wheel is a strop and there is no need to go to a leather strop. to me, i dont think its worth the time to strop a blade once you finish with the slotted wheel.

ryan, use lighter pressure on the grit wheel when working a burr back up on a knife thats only slightly dull or just go to the slotted wheel. you wont take off too much metal this way. sometimes i can touch up my knives without working up a burr. i found myself doing the same thing when i was new to the wheels.

 

[FlaMtnBkr]

Actually I think most of the wear was done on the slotted polishing wheel. I was skipping the grit wheel to just touch up the knife so it would always be really sharp. But sometimes the only way I could get the knife sharp was to use a slightly bigger angle and more pressure which was probably making a microbevel with the polishing wheel. I probably should have used the grit wheel sometimes when I was using the other. I ended up wearing a couple knives down quite a bit which now makes me a little leery of using them a lot.

I now use a strop with diamond spray for touch ups and I don't even need to do a real sharpening if I stay on top of a knife and not let it get real dull. A lot of times I only need a minute or two on a strop to get a blade back to hair whittling sharp which is quick enough for me.

I also haven't been using my wheels as much because I had to replace the grit and it has been coming off. I could never get all of the old grit and wax off and there was always a layer of black gunk which I think didn't let the glue bond real well to. I tried different grit sandpapers and even a file and just could not get all the black off. The first time I used it I knocked off the majority of the grit so did it again and it is just coming off in small patches but enough to make me question using it. I guess I have just been frustrated with them so haven't been using them much. My bad luck is probably due to my technique and I need to try to learn over again.

 

[Noctis3880]

yesterday i talked to a member who spent (he said wasted) almost $500. on numerous systems before finally getting a set of paper wheels which he said is the best purchase he made. the paper buffing wheel is a strop and there is no need to go to a leather strop. to me, i dont think its worth the time to strop a blade once you finish with the slotted wheel.

ryan, use lighter pressure on the grit wheel when working a burr back up on a knife thats only slightly dull or just go to the slotted wheel. you wont take off too much metal this way. sometimes i can touch up my knives without working up a burr. i found myself doing the same thing when i was new to the wheels.

Hmm, but in your video your wheel moves a hell of a lot slower than mine. I also find that my angle in any kind of freehand grinding or stropping is too wide compared to the angle I put on the knife with the EdgePro.

An interesting thing I've noted is that the slotted wheel doesn't seem to do a good job breaking off a burr. In fact, sometimes while the edge is razor sharp, I still see the burr. I'm wondering if the wheel isn't acting like a straight steel, and taking my edge to the strop breaks off the wire edge, making it "duller".

 

[cbwx34]

Noctis3880,

There actually could be several reasons why you're getting the results you are. Like you said, the texture of the JKS leather is a bit different. As noted on their website, the leather has a "very strong draw (or pull)" to it. This makes it great for removing even the tiniest of burrs. Removing a burr and not refining the edge, can make it feel a bit more coarse and/or dull it. Although the wheels are pretty good at removing a burr, it can, depending on the knife and technique, leave just enough to matter.

You also stated "my edge angle isn't exactly perfect". This too could be a reason for getting inconsistent results. If it didn't matter, then you wouldn't see a difference good or bad. The fact that you're seeing an improvement in the "pop/split/whittle" of hair, but a decrease in pushcutting paper, could be an indication you're refining the edge, but changing the angle.

I get results similar to FlaMtnBkr. If you have a proper edge, honing on leather even with the .25 diamond spray will generally result in some improvement, if done correctly. His tip of maybe trying to hone at a slightly lower angle is a good one.

I started to answer this earlier, but since I have the new JKS hone and spray, as well as the Sharpening Wheels, I went and tried a couple of knives. I'm confident in saying that with a bit of practice, you'll be seeing an improvement in your edge with this combination.

cbw

p.s. I noticed after I typed some of this, you may have come to the same conclusion in regards to the burr. (Too lazy to retype it).

 

[richard j]

noctis, its possible you're holding the blade a little too high on the slotted wheel and not removing the burr completely. i had a member contact me with problems sharpening with the wheels. he wanted to send me his knife but after talking to him on the phone he solved his problem. send me your number and i'll give you a call. rje196021@gmail.com

 

[dsmegst]

Not properly following grit progression is especially bad at such high grits. The white compound is greater than 1 micron, and more like 3-5 microns. Jumping ahead too far with such fine compounds very easily over polishes the edge, but your not really over polishing as you are polishing the peaks of the larger scratch pattern.

Hey,

I got a question about that. I've been using the paperwheels with the included white compound for quite a while now. And I've tried other methods, including the diamond paste strops using balsa wood, first with 1 micron and then 0.5 micron, following the Sharpmaker. When I examine the edge (with a handheld microscope that goes up to 100x) I can see a scratch pattern. When I use the paper wheels, there's no scratch marks at all towards the edge. It's a smooth surface right up to the edge.

I can't figure out how a compound with 3 or more micron abrasive can produce a scratch free surface. I can clearly see the scratches left from the grit wheel. But where the polishing wheel has been, it's smooth.

 

[richard j]

the grit in the white rouge breaks down as you buff the edge and the paper polishes out any scratches. another example is wetordry sandpaper. as you use it the grit breaks down to a finer grit. you can start out with a 400 grit and after some use that same 400 grit can feel like 600 or even finer. diamond wont break down. thats why you have to buy all the different grits and why you'll still see scratches.

 

[Noctis3880]

noctis, its possible you're holding the blade a little too high on the slotted wheel and not removing the burr completely. i had a member contact me with problems sharpening with the wheels. he wanted to send me his knife but after talking to him on the phone he solved his problem. send me your number and i'll give you a call. rje196021@gmail.com

Sorry, I'm not a phone person.

Though I've had much better luck in holding the correct angle after using a marker on the edge to check where I'm polishing.

the grit in the white rouge breaks down as you buff the edge and the paper polishes out any scratches. another example is wetordry sandpaper. as you use it the grit breaks down to a finer grit. you can start out with a 400 grit and after some use that same 400 grit can feel like 600 or even finer. diamond wont break down. thats why you have to buy all the different grits and why you'll still see scratches.

I hope you're not trying to tell me that I just wasted my money on the diamond spray.

I can understand if the final finish was about 1 micron, but we're talking about 0.25 micron, which is still a far cry from that.

Though another theory might be because it's true diamond VS another abrasive, which ironically might mean that the finer diamond is much more aggressive than the softer white rouge, especially on high hardness steels(HRC 60+).

 

[richard j]

when i was in school taking machine trades, our teacher showed us how grit breaks down as it is used and becomes finer. diamond however is hard and wont break down so it cant be finer unless its made finer but it will still leave lines. the grit rouge will break down as it is used which will give you an edge like dsmegst said in his post above "scratch free".

you can use your diamond spray to work down to the point where you can go to the white rouge on the slotted wheel. i have diamond discs that feel paper smooth that i use for ceramic blades and carbite lathe tools but i dont waste my time trying them on steel knives since the wheels will do a much better job.

i hate seeing guys spend way over the cost of a set of wheels and motor on all this diamond spray and stuff only to find out they wasted their money which a "few" guys will say differently about. i talked to a member who spent about $500. on diamond stones and other gadgets only to end up buying a set of wheels which he said gave him the best edge he ever had.

 

[Jason B.]

Yeah, you obviously have never used various diamond compounds because if you did you would understand that even 1 and 0.5 micron is far finer than white compound will ever be.

Paper wheels are good but will never compare to a edge worked through micron and sub micron diamond compounds.


Diamonds leave marks? all abrasive leaves marks diamonds just leave much smaller ones. Diamonds are a controlled abrasive unlike bar compound that can have a range of grits within them. Diamond abrasives cut better, polish finer, and leave a sharper edge than other compounds because they are a superior abrasive.

 

[dsmegst]

So there's the pure cost issue. I've gone through:

several cheapo/ineffective gadgets I'm embarrassed to admit to ($$)
Smith's Tri-hone (oil stones) ($)
Lansky type clamp system ($)
Sharpmaker ($$)
Ceramic bench stones ($$$)
full set of Norton waterstones ($$$)
3 x homemade strops and Amplex diamond pastes ($$)
leather and wood stops with green compound (#)
paperwheels (and I already had a variable speed bench grinder) ($$)

Easily over 4 or 5 hundred dollars invested. And the most effective and time saving process has been the paper wheels. The biggest advantage has been the amount of time saved in proportion with sharpness.

All the systems above in combination with proper stropping can produce amazingly sharp edges but in most cases, the time needed can be from 1/2 hour up to many hours per knife.

The wheels can't do convex or scandi edges (although it can maintain those edges) so that's the only limitation I see. The sharpest edge I can produce can slice a hair about 1/2 inches length wise. I'm guessing that's not too far from whittling hair.

It's not the only way to skin a cat but it's one of the best.

 

[Noctis3880]

Hmm, after trying with my old 1 micron leather strop, the results are still the same. Only interesting thing to note is that when the edge is held up against the light at the right angle, there's the usual mirror edge, but I also see a glint at the very edge on both sides, like the smallest micro bevel.

After 10 minutes passing the slotted wheel at super steep angles, that glint is still there. I assume at some point I irreparably blunted the edge on the slotted wheel, though I'm still not sure why that would cause my strops to dull the edge.

I'm guessing when the edge is done properly, there shouldn't be a "glint" at all?