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difference between a custom and a production knife?
- Thread starter Gary007
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There are varying degrees of "custom".
Some makers make every last item from scratch, some even smelt their own iron. Some are forged, some are stock removal, some are hand ground, some are ground on a belt grinder, some are CNC cut... some folks draw a sharp line, I don't. I have knives that are made entirely by hand, and some stock removal made by master smiths, some forged by master smiths, some entirely machined. I like them all.
Customs are generally hand made to some degree, usually more so than not. The difference is in the design, fit, and finish. Once I jumped the hurdle and bought my first custom knife (a damascus Bowie by Craig Steketee, off ebay) I was hooked. I'm consistently amazed at what some talented craftsmen are able to create, whether at the forge, or at the grinder, or CNC.
Some makers make every last item from scratch, some even smelt their own iron. Some are forged, some are stock removal, some are hand ground, some are ground on a belt grinder, some are CNC cut... some folks draw a sharp line, I don't. I have knives that are made entirely by hand, and some stock removal made by master smiths, some forged by master smiths, some entirely machined. I like them all.
Customs are generally hand made to some degree, usually more so than not. The difference is in the design, fit, and finish. Once I jumped the hurdle and bought my first custom knife (a damascus Bowie by Craig Steketee, off ebay) I was hooked. I'm consistently amazed at what some talented craftsmen are able to create, whether at the forge, or at the grinder, or CNC.
airyq
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I believe that originally, custom knives were knives that were made to the specifications and requirements of each individual customer. So, custom knives are likely to be one-of-a-kind knives.
However, today many of the custom makers have standard models that you can order, either as it is or with some limited modifications. As such, there may be other similar or very similar knives around.
Other custom makers just make knives as they want to and find buyers afterwards. These knives are also likely to be one-of-a-kind knives.
However, today many of the custom makers have standard models that you can order, either as it is or with some limited modifications. As such, there may be other similar or very similar knives around.
Other custom makers just make knives as they want to and find buyers afterwards. These knives are also likely to be one-of-a-kind knives.
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Many custom knives are not made completely by hand. The use of CNC machines has become more prevalent over the years. Some makers also farm out some of the manufacture of their knives. This includes the profiling of blades and handle material. Many makers farm out the heat treatment of their blades. The line between high end production knives and some of the custom knives out there is becoming more and more blurred all the time.
Low end production knives have their blades stamped out. They have all or almost all their manufacture done by machines, and they are made from poor materials. As the price of production knives increases the quality of materials goes up. Higher quality steels are not easily stamped so are more likely to be laser cut and more hand work is likely to be done.
Custom knives will generally be made from high quality materials, mostly by hand and by one person rather than by a bunch of factory workers. Custom knives can be made to order.
To me, the most important difference between production and custom knives are the people in the custom knifemaking community. It is a totally different and much more fulfilling experience to deal directly with the people that make your knives. Getting to know the makers, sometimes their families, and getting to call some of them friends leaves you much richer than purchasing from a store or online dealer.
Low end production knives have their blades stamped out. They have all or almost all their manufacture done by machines, and they are made from poor materials. As the price of production knives increases the quality of materials goes up. Higher quality steels are not easily stamped so are more likely to be laser cut and more hand work is likely to be done.
Custom knives will generally be made from high quality materials, mostly by hand and by one person rather than by a bunch of factory workers. Custom knives can be made to order.
To me, the most important difference between production and custom knives are the people in the custom knifemaking community. It is a totally different and much more fulfilling experience to deal directly with the people that make your knives. Getting to know the makers, sometimes their families, and getting to call some of them friends leaves you much richer than purchasing from a store or online dealer.
The term custom does not have a standard definition. From the knives sold as customs on this forum you can derive some idea of what custom doesn't mean. It certainly does not mean handmade, maybe it means handmade to partially handmade. It also does not mean that all of the work on the blade was done by the person whose name is on the blade, maybe it means most to all of the work done by that person. In reverse, there are some production knives that are handmade or partially handmade and sometimes they are made by just a few people. Some people believe custom means "made to customer order." Others believe custom means "original one of a kind." The best thing is to ask the maker how the knifie is made and decide for yourself whether or not you want it for the money.
brownshoe said:
Yeah, that's another thing I was wondering. If it's a "custom", does that mean it's one of a kind? Does that mean only 10 were made, 100, 1,500? To me a custom might mean only a few were made.
I first thought that William Henry knives were customs, but apparently not.
Seems like a fine line.
RWS
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Gary007 said:
For me, it boils down to fit and finish and a degree of design/style uniqueness, on the knives I collect.
Custom knives give so much in that way, especially if you help the maker visualize the knife design you want and then he makes it that way.
However, you should try to make sure that you and the maker are on the same page with all of the specs you really desire on that knife you order, unless you're just leaving a lot of that stuff up to the maker/artist himself which is ok also, or you may be a little dissapointed when you get it.
For example, here's a knife where everything went to plan...
...and here is a set of knives where there was miscommunication with the maker when the order was made...
"One of a kind" depends upon the maker. They can always repeat something done before, the exactness of the copy depends upon their skill and construction methods. "One of a kind" does not mean custom, there are many knifemakers known as custom makers who use stock patterns with very little variation over many knives and even years.
However, for some knives such as slipjoints, the pattern used for a knife often assures that is well made. Custom slipjoint makers often reuse a successful pattern and the knives get better with time. Each one can still be unique in terms of handle material, ornamentation, etc. They can even be "customized" to a buyer's particular preferences. But each shares the same pattern for handle, blade, spring, etc.
An example I think of is a knife I saw. It was done by a father and son team. The damascus steel was "made" by Dad with a power hammer. The blade handforged to shape, finish ground with power tools, heat treated and handled by the son. The sheath and final finish/check was done by Dad. The knife was similar to others they make, but definitely one of a kind when compared to what was on the table and in their portfolio. Is this a a hand made product??? Is it a custom??? One of a kind???? That's for you to decide. I thought it neat, worth the price and bought it. I don't buy for resale, so it's provenance as handmade or custom isn't work a tinker's damn to me.
However, for some knives such as slipjoints, the pattern used for a knife often assures that is well made. Custom slipjoint makers often reuse a successful pattern and the knives get better with time. Each one can still be unique in terms of handle material, ornamentation, etc. They can even be "customized" to a buyer's particular preferences. But each shares the same pattern for handle, blade, spring, etc.
An example I think of is a knife I saw. It was done by a father and son team. The damascus steel was "made" by Dad with a power hammer. The blade handforged to shape, finish ground with power tools, heat treated and handled by the son. The sheath and final finish/check was done by Dad. The knife was similar to others they make, but definitely one of a kind when compared to what was on the table and in their portfolio. Is this a a hand made product??? Is it a custom??? One of a kind???? That's for you to decide. I thought it neat, worth the price and bought it. I don't buy for resale, so it's provenance as handmade or custom isn't work a tinker's damn to me.
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I don't know RWS, maybe the customer asked to have the knives made that way.
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I've had many individuals ask this very question over the years. Especially when they see a 4" hunter that I'm selling for $500+.......they usually gasp and ask why they would spend that kind of money when they can purchase a production knife for $XX?
Here's my view on the issue.....
Production knives differ from custom/handmade knives in that a company is in business for one reason......to make the most profit with the least amount of output, both money and labor wise. This means that production knives are made as cheaply, both in materials and labor, as possible while still maintaining an ACCEPTABLE level of quality. Notice the word "acceptable". The production knife company is going to give you only the level of quality they feel is necessary to get you to purchase their product. The trademark on a production knife does not tell you who ground, heat treated, handled, or finished the knife.
Now let's compare this to the custom/handmade knifemaker. I will use myself as the example. The name "Caffrey" goes on every blade/knife I produce. It has taken me many years of hard work to achieve a decent reputation as a Bladesmith/Knifemaker...........and it would only take me letting one flawed piece out of the shop door to ruin all those years of hard work and effort. I MUST ensure that every knife that leaves my shop is the very best quality that I can produce. I am the one who forges, grinds, heat treats, and finishes each and every knife. If something I've produced is not the best it can be, then it is my personal reputation that is tarnished, and it is me who must correct that situation. If you get a shoddy production knife, you generally can return it and they will just send you one of the thousands that they have in inventroy, and then never give it a second thought. If you have an issue with a custom/handmade Knifemaker, and they are worth their salt, they will be bending over backwards to make things right. I can't speak for every maker, just for me. If I was concerned about making lots of money, I sure wouldn't be a Bladesmith.......I'd be out there working some other job where there is a paycheck coming in on a regular basis.
I believe that is the biggest thing that seperates production and custom/handmade knives is........ a level of pride and craftsmanship that drives us to go that extra mile to ensure what we produce is the best it can be. My honest belief is that the difference between production and custom/handmade knives is an issue of quality. Production knives exist at the "acceptable" quality level, while the custom/handmade knife is constantly pushing for a higher level of quality.
On the issue of calling it custom or handmade....I doubt we will every resolve that issue. For my part a custom knife is something that a customer specifies the parameters for.......usually one of a kind that is personalized to meet that customers wants/needs. Handmade? To me that term means that whoever places their name/logo on that knife has done all the major aspects of the piece, whether grinding or forging, heat treating, making/installing the guard and handle, and finishing the knife. If the individual uses machines to do that (as long as they are the one using/operating the machine in their shop) then I find no fault with it. I suppose a better term might be "Sole Authorship". When major componets of the process are out sourced, then it becomes either a semi-production or a "mid-tech".
Here's my view on the issue.....
Production knives differ from custom/handmade knives in that a company is in business for one reason......to make the most profit with the least amount of output, both money and labor wise. This means that production knives are made as cheaply, both in materials and labor, as possible while still maintaining an ACCEPTABLE level of quality. Notice the word "acceptable". The production knife company is going to give you only the level of quality they feel is necessary to get you to purchase their product. The trademark on a production knife does not tell you who ground, heat treated, handled, or finished the knife.
Now let's compare this to the custom/handmade knifemaker. I will use myself as the example. The name "Caffrey" goes on every blade/knife I produce. It has taken me many years of hard work to achieve a decent reputation as a Bladesmith/Knifemaker...........and it would only take me letting one flawed piece out of the shop door to ruin all those years of hard work and effort. I MUST ensure that every knife that leaves my shop is the very best quality that I can produce. I am the one who forges, grinds, heat treats, and finishes each and every knife. If something I've produced is not the best it can be, then it is my personal reputation that is tarnished, and it is me who must correct that situation. If you get a shoddy production knife, you generally can return it and they will just send you one of the thousands that they have in inventroy, and then never give it a second thought. If you have an issue with a custom/handmade Knifemaker, and they are worth their salt, they will be bending over backwards to make things right. I can't speak for every maker, just for me. If I was concerned about making lots of money, I sure wouldn't be a Bladesmith.......I'd be out there working some other job where there is a paycheck coming in on a regular basis.
I believe that is the biggest thing that seperates production and custom/handmade knives is........ a level of pride and craftsmanship that drives us to go that extra mile to ensure what we produce is the best it can be. My honest belief is that the difference between production and custom/handmade knives is an issue of quality. Production knives exist at the "acceptable" quality level, while the custom/handmade knife is constantly pushing for a higher level of quality.
On the issue of calling it custom or handmade....I doubt we will every resolve that issue. For my part a custom knife is something that a customer specifies the parameters for.......usually one of a kind that is personalized to meet that customers wants/needs. Handmade? To me that term means that whoever places their name/logo on that knife has done all the major aspects of the piece, whether grinding or forging, heat treating, making/installing the guard and handle, and finishing the knife. If the individual uses machines to do that (as long as they are the one using/operating the machine in their shop) then I find no fault with it. I suppose a better term might be "Sole Authorship". When major componets of the process are out sourced, then it becomes either a semi-production or a "mid-tech".
Ed, I agree with what you said but think you need to factor in those companies like Randall and Chrs Reeve where the quality is much higher than traditonal production companes. These don't completely fit the definition of a "custom" as the Knfemakers Guild defines it, but their quality is much above the production knfe company level.
Also, in your description of what constitutes a production knife company, I think you could add the word "average" to "acceptable level of quality." Only the company leadership knows what the actual quality attributes are for their products. When we purchase a knife from them, we assume our particular piece meets at least the lowest level of quality for each attribute. Actually, quality is a bell shaped curve for each attrbute (heat treat, grind lnes, sharpness, etc.) and it is possible to purchase a piece that meets the quality standard (minimum) for some attributes and be deficient for others. Why? Because quality checks are not done on every single piece produced.
With "custom" knives, or even "semi-custom" (Randall/CRK), things are not done on such a "batch" basis. Each piece is made, inspected, observed, etc. Therefore, each piece can meet at least the minimum quality standard in each attribute.
Sure customs/semi-customs cost more, but if each production knife received the same attention customs do, they would much more also.
Production knives have their place in life. During my military service, I carried a good quality knife (Mad Dog, Randall, CRK) but always had a Camillus "kabar" in my "A" bag as a back-up.
Bruce Woodbury
Also, in your description of what constitutes a production knife company, I think you could add the word "average" to "acceptable level of quality." Only the company leadership knows what the actual quality attributes are for their products. When we purchase a knife from them, we assume our particular piece meets at least the lowest level of quality for each attribute. Actually, quality is a bell shaped curve for each attrbute (heat treat, grind lnes, sharpness, etc.) and it is possible to purchase a piece that meets the quality standard (minimum) for some attributes and be deficient for others. Why? Because quality checks are not done on every single piece produced.
With "custom" knives, or even "semi-custom" (Randall/CRK), things are not done on such a "batch" basis. Each piece is made, inspected, observed, etc. Therefore, each piece can meet at least the minimum quality standard in each attribute.
Sure customs/semi-customs cost more, but if each production knife received the same attention customs do, they would much more also.
Production knives have their place in life. During my military service, I carried a good quality knife (Mad Dog, Randall, CRK) but always had a Camillus "kabar" in my "A" bag as a back-up.
Bruce Woodbury
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There are production knives that are better made than similar category customs. I have seen many bowies, including by ABS MS (but not Ed! 
) that were not as well made as the Fisk Camillius series. I have a Fallkniven knife which might be the best wilderness / outdoor knife I've ever seen. And the Sebenza is superbly designed and finished. I had an Obenauf folder which, although of outstanding quality, wasn't as ergonomic as the Seb'.
) that were not as well made as the Fisk Camillius series. I have a Fallkniven knife which might be the best wilderness / outdoor knife I've ever seen. And the Sebenza is superbly designed and finished. I had an Obenauf folder which, although of outstanding quality, wasn't as ergonomic as the Seb'.
RWS
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I think that's a good point as well as pointed out by Bruce.Joss said:
I purchased two pretty relatively expensive Benchmade folders that had a well known custom makers name attached to them.
They were production knives but, supposedly and apparently, had been hand finished by the folks at benchmade because they were a special model. They were nowhere near the price of that maker's customs.
Anyway, I went to this maker's table at a knife show to look at his real customs and found many beautiful knives at his table but none of them were as nicely fit and finished as the benchmades I bought that had his name on them.
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Bruce.... I agree, you can't lump Randall or Reeves in with the "production" crowd. I would consider their products a Mid-tech.
The main point I was driving at is that an individual knifemaker, working alone in his/her shop, tends to dwell more on the issue of quality, and again, if they're worth their weight in salt, they had better be striving the make each knife to the best of their abilities. I suppose comparing knives with something such as automobiles, you could say that a production knife is like going to the local car lot and picking from what's there.........where as a custom/handmade is like having a high dollar auto built for you such as an Avanti, or some other such car where you pay for, and get top notch quality.
I like the terms you used about "average" quality! Mind if I use that sometime??
I also agree with Joss........there are some makers out there who have decided to rest on their back sides because they have developed a reputation.........but that's the one of two things that have always scared me......the other is every saying... "That's good enough"
The main point I was driving at is that an individual knifemaker, working alone in his/her shop, tends to dwell more on the issue of quality, and again, if they're worth their weight in salt, they had better be striving the make each knife to the best of their abilities. I suppose comparing knives with something such as automobiles, you could say that a production knife is like going to the local car lot and picking from what's there.........where as a custom/handmade is like having a high dollar auto built for you such as an Avanti, or some other such car where you pay for, and get top notch quality.
I like the terms you used about "average" quality! Mind if I use that sometime??
I also agree with Joss........there are some makers out there who have decided to rest on their back sides because they have developed a reputation.........but that's the one of two things that have always scared me......the other is every saying... "That's good enough"
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Ed Caffrey said:
I have always thought that Mid-Tech was a term introduced to differentiate between maker's knives that are sole authorship and those that have some of the work farmed out. I did not think the term was meant to describe knives made by manufacturers.
Some people use the term semi-custom to describe knives from companies like CRK, Randall and Ruana. As far as I am concerned the term semi-custom is a misnomer. In my opinion a knife is either custom or it is not.
RWS
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As far as I'm concerned, possessing a knife made by a Fisk, Dean, Caffrey, Winkler, Newton, Crowell, Loveless or any other quality maker is like having a painting which was made by Michelangelo, Rembrandt, Cezanne, Da vinci, Raphael.
Sure, you can find similar paintings which are perfectly created by some fancy software program and mass produced and sold for a lot less but having one hand made by the hands of these painters is special. The same goes for handmade knives or anything handmade by someone who's good.
There is truly a special quality and value in the attention given to most handmade knives that cannot be matched by mass production, IMO. For me, there really isn't anything like a quality handmade knife and they can be made by many knifemakers that are out there today.
On the other hand, there are some knifemakers out there, whose knives I have seen in person, also in these forums, that make me wonder how or why they chose knifemaking as a profession.
Sure, you can find similar paintings which are perfectly created by some fancy software program and mass produced and sold for a lot less but having one hand made by the hands of these painters is special. The same goes for handmade knives or anything handmade by someone who's good.
There is truly a special quality and value in the attention given to most handmade knives that cannot be matched by mass production, IMO. For me, there really isn't anything like a quality handmade knife and they can be made by many knifemakers that are out there today.
On the other hand, there are some knifemakers out there, whose knives I have seen in person, also in these forums, that make me wonder how or why they chose knifemaking as a profession.
averageguy
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Unfortunately, because we have accepted different meanings for custom in recent years the distinction between custom and production is increasingly less sharp.
I fault the Knifemakers' Guild for this - for accepting a lower standard.
It should be possible to draw a clear distinction between production and custom. Not being able to is an affront to those makers that do hand make
their knives and dilutes the quality of the hobby.
See these two threads.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305096
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304796
I personally will not accept as custom any blade that was ground with the use of computer assisted machines.
I fault the Knifemakers' Guild for this - for accepting a lower standard.
It should be possible to draw a clear distinction between production and custom. Not being able to is an affront to those makers that do hand make
their knives and dilutes the quality of the hobby.
See these two threads.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305096
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304796
I personally will not accept as custom any blade that was ground with the use of computer assisted machines.
Ed, use away! I agree with your "car" analogy. I think the difference, as I said, is the amount of personal, human attention each knife gets -- custom: everyone is touched, worked, observed, inspected, etc., by the maker. If there are flaws, it's his choice to accept, remove, or start over (however the "semi-customs", mid-tech, etc. also fit here although they don't generally fit the Knfemaker's Guild definition of "custom".) With production knives, a "sample" of each batch gets inspected. The sample may be large or small, depending on what the QA department/person deems necessary. ...but the working unit here is "batch" not "each" like in customs. Flawed knives get to the customer because the flaws are not found.
...and then there are gradations of production companies also with Randall and CRK at the top and those those purchasing Pakastani/Indian/Chinese produced knives near the bottom. Price is a general indication of quality, but the correlation of price and quality is not 100%.
An analogy might be like when I change a tire on my truck. When I put the lug nuts back on, it put the top one on first, finger tight, then the remainder in a clockwise pattern. Next, I torque each one, in the same pattern with a torque wrench to a specified torque, checking each one for tightness. The pattern is so I don't miss any. The tire shop "monkey" grabs the air wrench and lets it fly. Some are overtightened, some get missed, one may be crossthreaded, and I've had some still finger tight! The wheel still turns without falling off so the average quality of support for each lug nut is enough to keep my wheel from falling off on the interstate, but it ain't right!
Yup, "average quality", not absolute quality.
Bruce
...and then there are gradations of production companies also with Randall and CRK at the top and those those purchasing Pakastani/Indian/Chinese produced knives near the bottom. Price is a general indication of quality, but the correlation of price and quality is not 100%.
An analogy might be like when I change a tire on my truck. When I put the lug nuts back on, it put the top one on first, finger tight, then the remainder in a clockwise pattern. Next, I torque each one, in the same pattern with a torque wrench to a specified torque, checking each one for tightness. The pattern is so I don't miss any. The tire shop "monkey" grabs the air wrench and lets it fly. Some are overtightened, some get missed, one may be crossthreaded, and I've had some still finger tight! The wheel still turns without falling off so the average quality of support for each lug nut is enough to keep my wheel from falling off on the interstate, but it ain't right!
Yup, "average quality", not absolute quality.
Bruce