Difference between Black Paper and G10?

TurnerIII

TurnerIII

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Ok - my poor old head is confused ( I think is has more to do with not drinking for like 25 years than anything..) Regardless - I am in need of assistance and my question is....

Could someone please explain to me the difference between G10 and Black Paper?

I thought G10 was more like a plastic (I know - bad comparison but sort of like plastic?)- it has clear sharper corners and definitions And Black Paper has more texture and fibers (again not the best description - but a general concept) and more organic like ....:rolleyes:

Pics would help show this to me -

Thanks in advance :D:thumbup:
 
great question - been wondering myself. black paper sure looks more like g10 then micarta.
 
G10 is an epoxy resin with glass woven fabric (fiberglass). Paper Micarta is an epoxy resin made with paper.

These are the strength ratings for FR-4 (industrial G10) made with glass woven fabric. Paper Micarta couldn't come close to this, for applications where strength matters. For knife handles strength isn't quite as important as industrial applications so it's a great material and looks really good.


Flexural Strength-LW-A-.125" > 448 MPa 65,000 psi
Flexural Strength-CW-A-.125" > 345 MPa 50,000 psi
Tensile Strength (.125") LW > 310 MPa 45,000 psi
 
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lsheldon said:
G10 is an epoxy resin with glass woven fabric (fiberglass). Paper Micarta is an epoxy resin made with paper.

These are the strength ratings for FR-4 (industrial G10) made with glass woven fabric. Paper Micarta couldn't come close to this, for applications where strength matters. For knife handles strength isn't quite as important as industrial applications so it's a great material and looks really good.


Flexural Strength-LW-A-.125" > 448 MPa 65,000 psi
Flexural Strength-CW-A-.125" > 345 MPa 50,000 psi
Tensile Strength (.125") LW > 310 MPa 45,000 psi
Click to expand...

Great explanation :thumbup: .... and glass being heavier than paper explains why G10 is heavier than paper micarta ....

Smoothness wise .... and heat conductivity ( how warm they feel in the hand ) you can take black paper down to a smoothness akin to ebony .... more smooth IMO than G10 feels but G10 feels somewhat warmer .... or so it seems to me ....
 
Black paper feels like butta' and g-10 feels like toast . . .:p




Don't ask, I'm feeling goofy tonight, but I stand by my comparison. :D;)
 
Here are a couple pictures of my BJ's - red/black G-10 and Black paper (I don't have a pure black G-10 fixed blade).

lsheldon pretty much nailed the differences.

Feel free to post it full screen as I don't know how. :o:o

EDIT: I had a CS-Mojo (from Blade West 06; bought from someone here, I can't remember who) that had the most comfortable hand-smoothed G-10 slabs that I've ever had or held!
 

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lsheldon said:
G10 is an epoxy resin with glass woven fabric (fiberglass). Paper Micarta is an epoxy resin made with paper.
Click to expand...

I thought that micarta typically used a phenolic or melamine resin to cure the laminate? That's why you don't see micarta in light colors, because the cured resin is darker than cured epoxy.
 
resinguy said:
I thought that micarta typically used a phenolic or melamine resin to cure the laminate? That's why you don't see micarta in light colors, because the cured resin is darker than cured epoxy.
Click to expand...

Yes, it can be any one of a number of different bonding agents depending on the application. Phenolics are typically used with circuit boards. I believe that melamine was used for the classic yellow Micarta, (Westinghouse?). I guess a better term than epoxy resin, would be a thermoset laminate which would cover all of the "types". Here is a bit of info on Micarta from wikipedia.

"Micarta industrial laminates are normally phenolic, epoxy, silicone, or melamine based thermoset materials reinforced with fiberglass, cotton cloth, paper, carbon fiber or other substrates".
 
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resinguy said:
I thought that micarta typically used a phenolic or melamine resin to cure the laminate? That's why you don't see micarta in light colors, because the cured resin is darker than cured epoxy.
Click to expand...

I've got two knives, one with ivory micarta and the other is white micarta. Are these mis named?

Not a poke, I'm trying to figure out all the nomenclature of all these different materials as well.
 
"micarta" is a trade name that I beleive technically covers a wide variety of products, as per:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micarta
vs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr4
(a slightly different version of g10 that modifies it's burning qualities)

So the tough reality is that "micarta" is not a designation of fabric, it is a trademark that spans many different fabrics and classes of reinforced epoxy materials. It can use phenolic, epoxy, silicone, or melamine resin depending on the particular grade or classification under the umbrella term of "micarta". It can be the canvas micarta we see on most busse's, or g10 which is specifically glass fiber sheets.

I have not yet found a specific link that describes whether there is a particular type of epoxy used for particular grades of "micarta" such as Fr4.
 
They are all very similar and are all derivatives of the same technology that made 'forMICA' very popular and your probably familiar with it in your kitchen, etc. Re: color, thats not true at all though re: lighter colors, many vendors offer white micartas which I really like... think its more of a white paper. I'm actually looking to get a custom SHF or chute knife made actually with white micarta ironically enough-which is really a popular color for those blades along with black of course. As someone mentioned, it is really fiberglass as well, and that's why I believe, and not from experience, but they MUST use the respirators when there sanding G10's for example-even with the finished product- they use the masks and such since the fumes and stuff are I think carcinogenic and deadly. It is man made stuff that is basically superior in every way to natural materials- from cost to durability. Re: 'paper', not so sure of the exact process, but its basically the same as the others re: properties and is known to have a polished or glossy finish, where the canvas micarta really has a dull-but beautiful finish- but all of them including linen, paper, G10, micarta- they are all from the same technology- and even share the "mica" in the name itself. Just my .02. I'm an idiot though... so do don't even listen to me, but that's what I know of it just as a simple customer. Personally, I love black canvas micarta and many of the G10 flavors that Busse offers. There is a ton of info if you google any of it.
 
To answer the original question, there are 2 things that will make g10 different than paper micarta, the laminate material (glass fiber sheets vs. paper sheets) and the epoxy thats used. Both of these can have a big effect on the chemical properties like tensile strength and burning properties. The sheet material is often identified such as burlap, denim, canvas, linen, or paper. Rarely in my experience is the exact type of resin identified. I don't know whether the type of resin is used in classifying the various classes of 'micarta' but I'm pretty positive it is, as the glass sheeting seems to be the same between g10 and fr4, but the burning properties are different, ie the resin composition appears to have changed slightly. But I could be wrong.

In use paper micarta is different then g10. It's a little lighter, and both take on sharp edges, but g10 can take on a more 'cut your hand up' sharpness. G10 takes on a better grit pattern, if you sand paper with 100 grit sand paper g10 will feel like your holding 1000 grit sandpaper or ceramic rod, where paper micarta will just feel softer, less grippy.

To me, this is a big advantage because it aids in grip when your hands are either really really dry or really really oily. In both instances, if you have a smooth surfaced knife handle, it will feel slick regardless of the machining. The ability to apply a grit to the surface helps a lot.

Paper micarta soaks things up like water, sweat and oil more then g10. g10 barely soaks ups moisture at all.
 
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As to the original question. The paper micarta has a much smoother appearance than G10.

in G10, especially machined G10 I can see the layers of the material.

With paper micarta, it looks much more uniform, with less texture when smooth finished.

Paper micarta does feel very nice in the hand. It feels "warmer" to me and has a "softness" not in how hard it is but just in the way it feels more alive in the hand??? It is not squishy, or noticeably less hard than g10. Hard to explain.

I chose G10 for the Muck le, because it will see a lot of kitchen/wet work. Slicing up chicken, veggies, etc.

I do like the feel of my black paper on the CABS.


The g10 will be more "color fast" than the paper micarta, which does loose it's surface shine, and in older pieces will begin to turn a bit greenish (like black licorice almost), on older knives.
 
TurnerIII said:
I thought G10 was more like a plastic (I know - bad comparison but sort of like plastic?)- it has clear sharper corners and definitions And Black Paper has more texture and fibers (again not the best description - but a general concept) and more organic like

Pics would help show this to me -

Thanks in advance :D:thumbup:
Click to expand...
Almost exactly the opposite, in my experience.

Bigfattyt said:
As to the original question. The paper micarta has a much smoother appearance than G10.

in G10, especially machined G10 I can see the layers of the material.

With paper micarta, it looks much more uniform, with less texture when smooth finished.
Click to expand...

Paper on the left, G10 on the right:

tachandles3.jpg
 
I have G10 and black paper knives. I have to say I prefer G10. Paper is nice but it could also pass for hard cheap plastic visually. It has minimal or nonexistent grain. Sorry, I'm not a hater by any means, just reporting my impressions. When given a choice, it's black G10 for me. Paper is a close second.
 
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