Difference between hardness/strength and edge retention/wear resistance

me2... I am impressed with your post #20...
"materials/engineering definitions. Others use these terms more casually..."
Thank you for your generosity... It's possible that I push "casual" to the extremes...or beyond.
thanx for such a well-informed and detailed description.
 
Why thank you. There is nothing wrong with casual use, and every industry has its own language.

Normalization is an example. Many knife makers will say they normalized their blades after forging. Now in the steel industry, this means steel was heated to a state of 100% austenite and air cooled. I knife making, it often means The blades were heated to 1450 F or so and air cooled. This might meet the industrial definition, or might not. It depends on the steel. One just had to be familiar with the audience or ask a lot of questions to know.

Also there was a great deal of discussion about bend testing a few years ago. I could go on ad nausium about why l think it is or isn't a good test of a knife. I use bend testing in the industrial sense to treat welding procedures and welders. However, those are 180 degrees instead of 90. When I started learning about the 90 degree test, l kept wondering why they didn't finish it. It is used there as a test of ductility and notch sensitivity. The steel must be able to stretch, and any small flaws cannot grow for the test to pass.
 

Some of the smaller flaws were probably barely visible before the test, but opened up and caused a rejection.
 
Ajack: thanks, I'll read that. It looks helpful.

Me2: thank you, this is great information. Your descriptions were so good I didn't even need the video, although I did watch them.
So then tension is related to tensile strength, seems obvious. Is tensile strength important in blades? What about shear? How does that apply to knives?

Thanks guys,

Bo
 
...If I may, I would like to differentiate between bending and flexing. Bending implies a permanent set is left even when the blade is released. Flexing indicates the blade returned to straight when released.

With that out of the way, the outside of the bend needs sufficient ductility to stretch without cracking. However, if only flexing is happening, no ductility is required. I have flexed blades as hard as 66 HRc to 90 degrees a dozen times with no effect on the blade. I have also bent them and after straightening, there was no noticeable difference. Heat treatment plays a role in toughness, ductility, and bending. As long as a blade is only being flexed, the only thing heat treatment determines is when bending starts. Cross sectional geometry and blade length affect flexing.

You might as well keep the vocabulary lesson going and use the terms elastic and plastic deformation here and get into Stress/Strain curves.

me2 surely knows all this but I will throw in my hat to explain quickly and others can clarify if desired:
"Flex" as used above describes "elastic deformation" - this is bending that is recoverable once the applied force (stress) is removed, i.e. the thing bent returns (springs back) to its original state.
"Bend" as used above is a casual use as one might employ in the phrase, "takes a bend", i.e. it permanently deforms or does NOT return (spring back) to its original state when the applied force (stress) is removed.

Hardness is the ability to withstand plastic (permanent) deformation. In the rockwell test, the material experience a compression force over a small area and the ease of indentation (a form of plastic deformation) is a direct measurement of the material hardness. Now 66 Rc is pretty hard for a steel blade, and yet it can be "flexed" to 90' and return to true precisely because hardness is resistance to permanent deformation - that is why it can return to true, it is very resistant to "taking a bend". But if you are wondering how it can then be flexed in the first place, understand that flexibility of a given material (i.e. the ease with which it can be bent at all) or rather stiffness (i.e. resistance to bending) is in cubic proportion to its thickness (cross-sectional geometry mentioned by me2 above). In other words, if you have two identical materials but one is 2x thicker than the other, then the thick piece will require 8x the force to be bent to the same degree as the thinner piece. A thin sheet of glass can also be bent to some degree and will return to its original form when the bending-force is removed. Understanding this, that stiffness/flexibility is largely determined by thickness, is important as a preliminary to understanding "fragility" or "brittleness" vs ductility in different materials. If me2 had tried to bend a blade twice as thick, he would have required either more force or more leverage (to achieve the force, that is what his point about blade length entails), and without a very long blade to distribute the stress via curvature, he might easily have fractured it at the greater thickness.

So elastic deformation (flexing) is what happens when a blade is flexed and returns to true... But what happens if you apply more force, bend the blade even further until... what? Eventually it "takes a bend" or becomes permanently deformed - this is the material's "elastic limit" or "yield point". HERE is where you begin to consider "ductility" in the material - how much stress can it take, how much can it bend, before it breaks/fractures altogether? A "brittle" material, like glass, will deform very little before it fractures, whereas a ductile material will deform and NOT fracture (not yet anyway). In the context of a knife blade or rather the knife edge, a ductile edge will roll or squash whereas a less ductile or more "brittle" edge will chip. The two terms are "relative" - one edge is brittle relative to the other, being "more brittle" does not make it "weaker" but only indicates that it will chip sooner after reaching its elastic limit whereas the more ductile edge will take more permanent deformation before experiencing a fracture. We often speak of this resistance to fracture as "toughness". Note that an edge LACKING "toughness" (i.e. "brittle") may actually be the "stronger" edge - "brittle" does not mean "weak".

But if "brittleness" does not imply "weakness", then what IS weakness? A "weak" edge is one that permanently deforms (i.e. ceases to be an edge at all) at a lower level of stress than a "strong" edge. Consider that the ductile edge, the one that resists chipping by bending instead, may begin bending under relatively low stress, whereas the more brittle edge may only flex or may remain entirely true at the same level of stress and require much more force/stress to incur damage - in such a case, the latter is the "stronger" edge. Strength (in a blade edge) is the ability to hold your shape against the stresses involved in cutting, i.e. resistance to "flex", "bending", and finally fracture.

Just remember that resistance to "flex" can be accounted for largely through thickness so a very ductile or a very brittle edge can be made stronger through an increase in thickness. The problem with that is that it is in direct opposition to the mechanical advantage of the edge to make a cut so a balance must be struck between edge strength and mechanical advantage. By using a harder material (i.e. one that is more resistant to deformation), we can make an edge thinner (to increase mechanical advantage) without sacrificing edge strength.

However it is again important to note that "strength" is not defined by how brittle or ductile a blade is, only by how resistant to deformation it is, i.e. it is defined relative to the stress involved. So what about "toughness"? Above "ductility" is defined as the ability to take a bend (or just deform) rather than fracture once the elastic limit is exceeded - this can be the same thing as "toughness". me2's distinction regarding the rate of applied stress (impact vs slow-load) can also come into play for how one wishes to define/distinguish these. Again, it is key that "toughness" ONLY comes into play once the elastic limit is reached - before then, you are still talking about strength. So if we take two blades, one that deforms while the other holds its shape (having not reached its elastic limit), we might say colloquially that the second blade is "tougher" but it is really only stronger - until it begins to take a bend, you won't get to see how tough it really is ;)

That's a wall of text, so I'll stop typing there.
 
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Chiral: thank you dude. That was a lot of information, but I learned a hell of a lot. I'll have to reread it a couple times to fully grasp everything, but I have a pretty good idea about this topic now.

Thanks again,

Bo
 
Higher strength generally reults in higher hardness, but not always.
Great explanations in this threat. This one I'm struggling with. Is the point that there is a correlation between hardness and strength? And if so, does that only work up to a point? Can too much hardness result in so much brittleness that strength diminishes? Or do we generally only see increased strength with increased hardness?
 
In a general sense there is a correlation between hardness and tensile strength. However it is not exact. A sample could test 60 Rockwell hardness and tensile test at 355,000 psi. The next could be 61 Rockwell and test 350,000 psi. The biggest reason for the differences is probably related to the hardness test being a point(s) test while tensile test affect the entire cross section. Hardness tests typically average 3 to 5 individual readings at least in a lab setting. Production tests might just be one point.
 
Great explanations in this threat. This one I'm struggling with. Is the point that there is a correlation between hardness and strength? And if so, does that only work up to a point? Can too much hardness result in so much brittleness that strength diminishes? Or do we generally only see increased strength with increased hardness?

Depends on the microstructure thats making up the HRC.

Its like saying every 200 lbs person will have the same level of strength when in fact its the body composition making up that weight, not just body weight that is a factor.

So, it's erroneous to say that a specific HRC will always be too brittle etc, it depends.
 
When strength gets very high, and hardness also gets very high, accurate tensile testing becomes more difficult. You can’t just grab the sample and stretch it in gripping jaws or threaded chucks. In these instances, strength is often tested with compression testing. Compressive strength testing is less sensitive to the complications of testing materials with very low ductility. The old study I read had M4 steel tested up to 65 HRc and compressive strengths over 600,000 psi. Compressive strength is generally 1 to 3 percent higher than tensile strength in steels and metals in general. That is NOT the case in most other nonmetallic materials. For example in concrete the difference is about 1000% (higher compressive strength).

I would say the correlation between hardness and strength continues but the limits of tensile testing make it difficult to tell.
 
I would say the correlation between hardness and strength continues but the limits of tensile testing make it difficult to tell.
Well one difference is how many carbides there are in the steel. The carbides will help increase the resistance to the rockwell test probe but don't contribute to tensile strength.
When I've tested steels in tension we used specially machined specimens. It's been a long time but they might have been 3/8" or 1/2" diameter in the center, with the ends larger diameter and threaded, maybe 3/4" threads. This way there is enough for the testing machine to grab onto and test the capacity of the smaller diameter center section. These tests are typically for steels closer to 100ksi than 600 ksi. I don't know why something similar couldn't be done for higher strength steels but the specimens would need to be sized so they could be effectively heat treated, and the transition from small cross section to larger cross section would need to be configured to reduce the effects of stress concentrations.
 
Carbides don’t typically contribute to hardness directly until the volume percentages are very high. Even things like Stellite test relatively low in the hardness scale but has a high volume of carbides. Carbides do somewhat contribute to compressive strength but are somewhat detrimental to tensile strength.

Steels with very high strengths also tend to have very low ductility. This lack of ductility makes the test results scatter as even small misalignments in the gripping apparatus can cause erratic results. At the very highest hardness and strength levels the steels begin to behave like ceramics. Direct tensile testing of ceramics is a lot like herding cats. Alternate tests are needed.
 
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