Different locking mechanisms and wear

[FrannaM]

I am curious to hear what types of locking mechanisms show the most wear. I know there are a gazillion factors that cause more or less wear, but which type of lock in your experience has shown the most wear over time.

I own knives with titanium framelocks (steel insert), liner locks, lock backs, compression lock and Tri-Ad lock. I have a chinese made Spyderco ambitious that has seen a lot of use and the liner lock was wearing out to the point where I had to adjust, bent the liner to securely engage the tang of the knife. The lock with the least wear currently is a tri-ad lock. This knife has also seen more use as the mentioned Spyderco Ambitious.

There is a lot of hype around early lockup and often the mention about not being fixated on early lockup because it will never wear to the point where it will compromise lockup, well as mentioned I had a case like that. Maybe just crappy liner steel, but got me thinking.

Also why is there still companies (often high end knives) that does not make use of a steel inserts on their framelock knives. Surely titanium is softer than hardened steel and will wear faster?

 

[soc_monki]

Because the titanium is treated to prevent wear. The major issues are lock stick because of dissimilar metals. The titanium is softer, but when done correctly it is not a factor. Just look at all the sebenzas that are in use. That should show that titanium is up to the task as long as it's treated correctly.

And there are ways to fix a liner that has traveled too far. Peening the lockbar is one way, and a bigger diameter stop pin is another. I have multiple cheap liner locks, and none have traveled very far. A Tenacious is one of them and it's still solid and I used that knife a lot!

As for early vs late lock up... I just want secure lock up. Can be early or late, and I have examples of both. My 470 can very early, so early I could force it closed. I used it a little, and flicked it hard some, and it has settled in at about 40% lockup and is secure. Axis locks as well. Some people get rid of them as soon as they open the box and see vertical blade play. Flick it hard a few times, go cut some stuff with it. I had a couple come like that, but as soon as I used it or flicked it a little while it wore in and no more play.

 

[FrannaM]

Agree with the Axis lock. The break in period is often overlooked. I have a Para 3 that had tiny bit horizontal blade play and after gradually tightening the pivot screws and open and closing many times it's perfect now. I have never handled a CRK, but as for some others I will never buy a Ti frame lock without a steel insert because of the lock stick issue. Guess I just had a bad experience.

 

[kniferbro]

There is a lot of hype around early lockup and often the mention about not being fixated on early lockup because it will never wear to the point where it will compromise lockup, well as mentioned I had a case like that.

I wouldn't call that a case of compromised lock up. It's designed to wear across the entire tang, it didn't do that- the lock arm was just not sprung enough. Once the liner wears across the entire tang and the lock up is compromised with no where else for the arm to move over, I'd say that is worn out.

 

[Frailer]

...why is there still companies (often high end knives) that does not make use of a steel inserts on their framelock knives. Surely titanium is softer than hardened steel and will wear faster?

I’ve never seen the need for a steel insert on the face of the lock bar. In fact, I’m biased against them.

I understand why some folks might be concerned about premature wear from a theoretical perspective, but how many folks have—in practice— managed to wear out the lock face on a quality knife?

I really wonder about those who insist a knife have “early lock-up” *and* want a steel insert. Do these people plan to use the same knife all day every day until their 150th birthday?

Without meaning to be a snarky old fart, I find it intriguing that the new breed of knife intelligentsia who seem to be obsessed with these sorts of things also tend to be the same folks who switch knives with roughly the same frequency as they change their socks.

 

[DocJD]

currently is a tri-ad lock.

The Tri-ad lock does eventually wear , but is made to be self adjusting to maintain a solid lockup with no fuss .

My favorite lock for a working knife for both strength and reliability with minimum care .

 

[DocJD]

Without meaning to be a snarky old fart

This should be a thread title !

I would add that knife locks used for fidget toys are prone to be opened and closed hundreds or thousands of times for each time they are actually used to cut , if ever . This might impact premature wear compared to a knife opened mostly only to make a cut .

Yeah , I do it too .

 

[TheEdge01]

Agree with the Axis lock. The break in period is often overlooked. I have a Para 3 that had tiny bit horizontal blade play and after gradually tightening the pivot screws and open and closing many times it's perfect now. I have never handled a CRK, but as for some others I will never buy a Ti frame lock without a steel insert because of the lock stick issue. Guess I just had a bad experience.

I prefer a steel insert on frame locks myself. However, CRK frame locks are no slouch when it comes to wear. The owner of a sporting goods store I do business with let me hold his well used, decade old Sebenza. The lock bar was about 3/4 of the way toward the opposite scale. That isn’t too bad IMO for a 10 year old folder. His store no longer carried them, so he wasn’t trying to get me buy one.

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

I am curious to hear what types of locking mechanisms show the most wear. I know there are a gazillion factors that cause more or less wear, but which type of lock in your experience has shown the most wear over time.

I own knives with titanium framelocks (steel insert), liner locks, lock backs, compression lock and Tri-Ad lock. I have a chinese made Spyderco ambitious that has seen a lot of use and the liner lock was wearing out to the point where I had to adjust, bent the liner to securely engage the tang of the knife. The lock with the least wear currently is a tri-ad lock. This knife has also seen more use as the mentioned Spyderco Ambitious.

There is a lot of hype around early lockup and often the mention about not being fixated on early lockup because it will never wear to the point where it will compromise lockup, well as mentioned I had a case like that. Maybe just crappy liner steel, but got me thinking.

Also why is there still companies (often high end knives) that does not make use of a steel inserts on their framelock knives. Surely titanium is softer than hardened steel and will wear faster?

Because the titanium is treated to prevent wear. The major issues are lock stick because of dissimilar metals. The titanium is softer, but when done correctly it is not a factor. Just look at all the sebenzas that are in use. That should show that titanium is up to the task as long as it's treated correctly.

And there are ways to fix a liner that has traveled too far. Peening the lockbar is one way, and a bigger diameter stop pin is another. I have multiple cheap liner locks, and none have traveled very far. A Tenacious is one of them and it's still solid and I used that knife a lot!

As for early vs late lock up... I just want secure lock up. Can be early or late, and I have examples of both. My 470 can very early, so early I could force it closed. I used it a little, and flicked it hard some, and it has settled in at about 40% lockup and is secure. Axis locks as well. Some people get rid of them as soon as they open the box and see vertical blade play. Flick it hard a few times, go cut some stuff with it. I had a couple come like that, but as soon as I used it or flicked it a little while it wore in and no more play.

There are two standard ways to prevent lock stick and excessive wear to the lockbar face (whether a framelock or linerlock): carburizing/carbonizing e.g. CRK Sebenza 21) and carbidizing (e.g. Grismo Norseman). Carburizing is basically a heat treat to harden the titanium. Carbidizing involves applying a thin layer of tungsten or titanium carbide to the lock face.

Here's a video with an interview of Chris Reeve on the carbidizing (skip to 4:47):

Here's a video of John Grismo carbidizing a lock face:

 

[timberweasel]

Just my two coppers for the pot, but I'd say Axis-lock. The entire design completely relies on the integrity of the Omega springs to function properly and, sooner or later, they break. Even so, you can get years of reliable service from an Axis-lock folder, no problem, and it's easy enough to fix.

The most important factor to frame and liner-locks is geometry; material is a distant secondary factor, IMO.

 

[Frotier76]

One of the most interesting locks I've had was a Colt M4/Fred Carter design knife by United Cutlery. You basically push this spring loaded steel button that moves the reverse liner lock to unlock the blade. It sounds like Benchmade's Nak-Lok but goes a very different locking route. That liner has a steel bolt attached that goes in a hole that's machined completely through the blade.

The spring to the button you push will wear a little over many years of use...but the lock itself ages rather well.

 

[jlauffer]

Once the liner wears across the entire tang and the lock up is compromised with no where else for the arm to move over, I'd say that is worn out.

I’ve never seen the need for a steel insert on the face of the lock bar. In fact, I’m biased against them.

I understand why some folks might be concerned about premature wear from a theoretical perspective, but how many folks have—in practice— managed to wear out the lock face on a quality knife?

I really wonder about those who insist a knife have “early lock-up” *and* want a steel insert. Do these people plan to use the same knife all day every day until their 150th birthday?

Without meaning to be a snarky old fart, I find it intriguing that the new breed of knife intelligentsia who seem to be obsessed with these sorts of things also tend to be the same folks who switch knives with roughly the same frequency as they change their socks.

Don't have that much experience with liner/frame locks, so forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't the benefit of an insert be the ability to replace it (assuming it can be replaced), thereby extending the life of the knife?

 

[Frailer]

Don't have that much experience with liner/frame locks, so forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't the benefit of an insert be the ability to replace it (assuming it can be replaced), thereby extending the life of the knife?

In *theory*, yes. Of course, that presumes the manufacturer is still making the model in question when the need arises—which should be decades down the road, if the knife was properly made in the first place.

But IMHO this is the solution to a problem that doesn’t exist. If the face of a frame lock bar wears down to the point of dysfunction through normal use the knife probably has bigger problems.

Nevertheless, as has been mentioned, if someone is using their knife as a fidget toy, opening and closing a knife compulsively throughout the day, perhaps—for them—a steel insert on the lock face (not to mention a “super steel” blade) might be a good idea. And as far as I’m concerned those folks are welcome to such knives. I wish them much joy in the peculiar avenue through which they enjoy our hobby, and I promise to forgo purchasing the knives they love.

 

[FrannaM]

The Tri-ad lock does eventually wear , but is made to be self adjusting to maintain a solid lockup with no fuss .

My favorite lock for a working knife for both strength and reliability with minimum care .

Agree. I have a A lawman and a Tuff Lite. The Tuff Lite gets the most use out of all my knives and I can't see the lock wearing to such an extent that it will reach the bottom of the cut-out in my lifetime.

 

[FrannaM]

I would add that knife locks used for fidget toys are prone to be opened and closed hundreds or thousands of times for each time they are actually used to cut , if ever .

I'm guilty. I have a Para 3 that is my go to office fidget knife. It is my only compression lock knife and will be interesting to see how the lock wear over time. That said I also use the knife for a lot of cutting tasks as it's a great slicer.

Would it be correct to assume that a compression lock will wear slower than a liner lock? It makes contact on 2 surfaces as appose to 1??

 

[FrannaM]

but wouldn't the benefit of an insert be the ability to replace it (assuming it can be replaced), thereby extending the life of the knife?

Exactly, but wonder if there is anyone reading this thread who actually had to replace the insert because it was worn out. That would be very interesting.

 

[jonnieb27]

Exactly, but wonder if there is anyone reading this thread who actually had to replace the insert because it was worn out. That would be very interesting.

I'm convinced that the insert, generally speaking, was designed to lessen the accuracy required to make a frame lock knife, and also perhaps to prevent issues due to cheaper materials used in lesser knives. Sometimes these solutions take on a life of their own, to the point where some will not purchase a "plain" frame lock without insert.

Don't get me wrong, the insert still needs to be accurately shaped to work well, but the machining is done to the separate insert piece, not the scale with the cutout itself.

The Chris Reeve ceramic ball lockup is an interesting, and original, take on this subject. I still feel that the ball was designed to mitigate against the time consuming and labour intensive need to custom fit/grind every individual blade to each Sebenza 21 scale for a perfect fit. Time will tell if the ceramic ball, which has a much smaller (approaching zero) contact point, will stand up over the long haul (ie not wear the tang significantly). And to me, the nature of the titanium "stick" against a steel blade tang was always part of the inherent stability of the frame lock using these materials.

 

[Weiss]

I have a Spyderco Tenacious with a worn out liner lock. When the blade is opened, the lock springs all the way to the liner on t he other side. The blade "locks," but it wiggles noticeably. The knife is maybe ten years old, at the most. Probably not bad mileage, considering initial cost.

 

[kniferbro]

The Chris Reeve ceramic ball lockup is an interesting, and original, take on this subject. I still feel that the ball was designed to mitigate against the time consuming and labour intensive need to custom fit/grind every individual blade to each Sebenza 21 scale for a perfect fit. Time will tell if the ceramic ball, which has a much smaller (approaching zero) contact point, will stand up over the long haul (ie not wear the tang significantly). And to me, the nature of the titanium "stick" against a steel blade tang was always part of the inherent stability of the frame lock using these materials.

Plenty of ceramic ball interface CRKs going strong. My most carried knife is a Sebenza 25 and it's lock is going strong. A lot of Zaans with even more time and use on them doing well.

 

[SuburbanBarbarian]

The Tri-ad lock does eventually wear , but is made to be self adjusting to maintain a solid lockup with no fuss .

My favorite lock for a working knife for both strength and reliability with minimum care .

I recall at one point the catalog having an explanation about how it was self adjusting as the lock wore. I really gotta get one now, ha ha.