Difficult customers and pricing knives.

[Crag the Brewer]

Another thing I explain to our craftspeople when they 'balk' at this thinking with comments like, "how can I charge similar prices as a master smith?" is, that the master probably took x-hours to make this and thus is making $75/hour, where as a novice you took 2 weeks to do something of equal quality, and so you are only making $10/hour right now.

Very True!!!

 

[Richard338]

Another thing I explain to our craftspeople when they 'balk' at this thinking with comments like, "how can I charge similar prices as a master smith?" is, that the master probably took x-hours to make this and thus is making $75/hour, where as a novice you took 2 weeks to do something of equal quality, and so you are only making $10/hour right now.

If you take your time and carefully plan each step with no regard for efficiency or profitability, you can approach your current ceiling as far as execution. No amount of extra time will let novice work approach that of a master. In fact I often stop a process on the grinder once it becomes likely that I do more harm than good.
If you execute all the steps well, then you have properly realized your design. That doesn't mean that your design is well conceived for its purpose, or has pleasing flow. One hopes to evolve in all of these areas over time.

 

[dfarm]

Set price expectations at the start! Don’t assume that even if they are in the knife world or a parallel one, that they know the cost of what they are asking for. Especially important for friends and family!

This is the first lesson I learned about selling knives, and it happened on the very first one. Lol

A friend that had moved away started bugging me to make a knife for him "I'd love to buy a knife from you", he said at the time. I didn't want to be awkward with the conversation so I just figured I'd give him what I thought was a screaming deal on it. It was a small fixed blade, 3" blade, 7" overall kind of thing. Made from 1084 with canvas micarta scales and a leather sheath I'd also made. I figured since I was selling it, I should put my name on it and I paid the local knife shop $20 or $25 to laser my name on the blade. When it was finished, I asked my friend how $100 sounded and he didn't respond to that, or any other texts for about half a year. Lol

I ended up getting the $100 a few months later from a guy through the knife shop that marked the knife for me. But it still was a memorable lesson. Have the "awkward" conversation up front because it's probably going to be more awkward later.

 

[C_Claycomb]

There seem to be two completely contradictory lines of advice being given on choosing a pricing level. They are the same two lines that I have read and been told ever since I got interested in knives and jointed this forum, so this isn’t a dig any anyone here, the arguments for one line or the other probably predate everyone here. However, taken at face value, it’s no wonder that new makers, and particularly hobby makers, struggle with pricing even after asking for advice.

It seems to me that one line of advice, let’s call it the “don’t undercut the pros” line, is more appropriate for the more prolific hobbyist, or new makers with plans to make knives a significant side gig or even a full time business.

The other line, let’s call it “limit your ego, cover costs” line seems more suited to the very new and those who tinker with knives as a hobby but have no ambition to become names or have it as a business.

What do you think? What do you think should be the determining factor between following one or the other? Start with one, then transition to the other?

A knife is worth what a customer can sell it for on the secondary market.

Hoss

one of the most important considerations that go into my pricing is the potential resale value- I do not want my work to ever have to sell for less than what I charge my patrons

I am not sure if this is a harsher version, or a contradiction of “what you are selling is worth only as much as someone is willing to pay.” Especially when so many pieces of gear and tools normally sell for only 40-75% of new price if they have been used.

…don't undercut the market too much. …there is often a temptation for some craftspeople to charge less than the piece is worth in order to have the $ in hand. …

“My knives are priced according to my skill…not your budget.” Sooner you go by this, the more peace of mind you’ll have and you’ll find your customers and not a quick buck.

…
I agree about how it's bad to undersell.
The maker might not feel confident in their work, and don't wanna offend the Real Makers? But, Don't Do That. You Should be selling to the comparable work.

Don't sell a $200 knife for $75. You are ruining the chances of the Pros making a living..... If your knife looks the same, quality wise. Charge the same. It also forces Them to step-up their game, to make their work outshine yours.

Way underselling them lowers the perceived value of all the Makers.

If your work can't compete, Don't sell it.
(In My opinion)

Another thing I explain to our craftspeople when they 'balk' at this thinking with comments like, "how can I charge similar prices as a master smith?" is, that the master probably took x-hours to make this and thus is making $75/hour, where as a novice you took 2 weeks to do something of equal quality, and so you are only making $10/hour right now.

Too many people make a couple of knives, and they suddenly become a Master Knifemaker.

This is true of every skill and craft.

It takes 20 years to get 20 years of experience, and some people take 30.

…A European hobby maker could make a really nice kitchen knife and maybe get 100 to 200 euros for it. Benjamin Kamon could make the same knife and get 700 euros for it. Price your knives so they at least repay your materials and some small return on the equipment. As a hobbyist, don't try to factor in your time. …

 

[DevinT]

This is something I get asked a lot from beginner and intermediate makers (“how much should I charge for this knife”).

My advice is to get to a point where you can charge around $100 per inch of blade length for a fixed blade knife and around $200 per inch closed length for a folder.

Add for a guard or bolster, high end materials, tapered tang, embellishments like engraving or file work etc.

Creating a demand for your work is the most important thing here. The best way to create a higher demand for your work is to sell more knives and get more customers and collectors. It’s an over simplification but you need a certain amount of knives out there to make them have some value on the secondary market.

Higher quality work demands a higher price. It’s better to make high quality knives using high end materials than it is to turn a profit at first, it will pay off in the long run.

Work at it until you can make $100 per hour, when you become famous you can increase that amount.

Good luck

Hoss

 

[LCoop]

So a 4" kitchen paring knife should sell for $400? Not sure I follow this advice. Sure wish I could though. To be honest I'd probably pay that for one of your 4" paring knives though. lol I think it all depends on who you are, your experience and your clientele and the product available to sell.

 

[DevinT]

So a 4" kitchen paring knife should sell for $400? Not sure I follow this advice. Sure wish I could though. To be honest I'd probably pay that for one of your 4" paring knives though. lol I think it all depends on who you are, your experience and your clientele and the product available to sell.

Kitchen knives don’t always get the respect they deserve.

I’ve seen lots of 4” hunting or 4” boot knives sell for around $400.

I don’t know what a Kramer goes for these days but 10 years ago they were going for $400 per inch.

Hoss

 

[LCoop]

BUT for the average Joe. Selling a kitchen paring knife for more than 40 dollars when a customer can buy a 60 piece knife set from Wally World for the same price is a hard sell for most knife makers,

 

[DevinT]

BUT for the average Joe. Selling a kitchen paring knife for more than 40 dollars when a customer can buy a 60 piece knife set from Wally World for the same price is a hard sell for most knife makers,

Look at MKC and see what they are getting for their knives. And keep in mind that they are a production knife.

Hoss

 

[Richard338]

It's a tough racket. It's pretty much all or nothing. If you have something uniquely exciting then sky's the limit. Otherwise you'll be lucky to make a modest profit. Look at the makers' fixed blade sale forum here. CPK sells 20 knives in less than a minute. Then some well executed knives, priced significantly less at $200-$300, sit for days if they sell at all.

 

[LCoop]

Look at MKC and see what they are getting for their knives. And keep in mind that they are a production knife.

Hoss

I get it I really do! But keep in mind most knife makers are not going to have a Toyota commercial introducing their web page. I'm sure Toyota is part of it's profit. It's apple to oranges comparison.

 

[Seedy Lot]

You guys are going to hate this but I love under selling all of you!

I make knives for people to use and at a certain price point knives transition from tools to collector items with investment potential. I like to keep the tool users as customers and don't care much for the collectors.

I am around $60 per blade inch for fixed blades.

And I do agree your knife value is a direct reflection on the secondary market prices and availability.

 

[Crag the Brewer]

BUT for the average Joe. Selling a kitchen paring knife for more than 40 dollars when a customer can buy a 60 piece knife set from Wally World for the same price is a hard sell for most knife makers,

Then don't sell 4" paring knives....

 

[weo]

it’s no wonder that new makers, and particularly hobby makers, struggle with pricing even after asking for advice.

One last thought I had while reading this thread. All previously stated reasons and ways to think about pricing are reasonable to me, and they all depend on what your life priorities are. Many folks view life in terms of pure economics, heck people are often referred to as "consumers" instead of "citizens". If this is the case, then you need to at least cover your costs so that you don't consistently 'lose' money.
However, I know a lot of folks who don't view life in purely dollar-sign 'economic' terms, so cost of materials might be negligible compared to the price of good-will generated.
So, I guess the answer to the 'how to' question is to find out a method that works for you, both in terms of $, and ability to go to sleep at night without worrying.

 

[DanF]

There are no easy answers for this as indicated by the varied replies.
Name recognition (and reputation), targeted demographics, venue (some will work for you and some will not). Juried titles mean a lot and add $$ to your sales (self-proclaimed titles don’t mean shit, except in your own mind).
Stay away from the sites/venues where the majority are looking for a budget price for a very nice knife. Find alternative ways/locations to display and sell. Knife shows are just one opportunity, there are many others that have less Knifemaker representation (oversaturation) that will outsell a knife show hands down.

 

[PEU]

A knife is worth what a customer can sell it for on the secondary market.

Hoss

While this may be true (I don't agree with the statement) it offers no advice on knives the customer do not want to part ways with.
You can price a knife whatever you want, but the value is settled and cemented by the customer when he/she purchases it.
You cannot define value, you set the price, its the customer who defines the value with his wallet by purchasing your knife.

BUT for the average Joe. Selling a kitchen paring knife for more than 40 dollars when a customer can buy a 60 piece knife set from Wally World for the same price is a hard sell for most knife makers,

You won't be able to sell more expensive knives while you're on that mindset, I mean the "average Joe can't" but also in the mindset of looking what other knifemakers do.
You have the develop your customers networks, tell a multiple year/decade consistent story about your knives and your principles and not compare yourself everyday with other knifemakers since every person is different and the only coincidence is the knifemaking.

Also, knifemaking is only a part of your success making knives, it reads like a oxymoron, but is not, you need to be good at selling, good at promoting, good at negotiating, good at closing a sale and good at promoting the next one. These are additional skills most of the knifemakers I know neglect, not all, most.

[edit]
Forgot to add how I price my knives.
I have a base price (I know I cant post $ but its $250 its for explaining sake ) then carbon damascus is x times that, stainless damascus 2x carbon damascus, then I have fixed plus prices for stabilized wood (+$xx) bolsters (+$xx) mosaic pins (+$xx) hand tooled sheath (+$xx) etc etc
And then I have one offs prices for rarer steels or complicated custom orders.
This system helps me quote a knife very fast and on the spot while a customer asks me how much it will cost.


Pablo

 

[LCoop]

While this may be true (I don't agree with the statement) it offers no advice on knives the customer do not want to part ways with.
You can price a knife whatever you want, but the value is settled and cemented by the customer when he/she purchases it.
You cannot define value, you set the price, its the customer who defines the value with his wallet by purchasing your knife.



You won't be able to sell more expensive knives while you're on that mindset, I mean the "average Joe can't" but also in the mindset of looking what other knifemakers do.
You have the develop your customers networks, tell a multiple year/decade consistent story about your knives and your principles and not compare yourself everyday with other knifemakers since every person is different and the only coincidence is the knifemaking.

Also, knifemaking is only a part of your success making knives, it reads like a oxymoron, but is not, you need to be good at selling, good at promoting, good at negotiating, good at closing a sale and good at promoting the next one. These are additional skills most of the knifemakers I know neglect, not all, most.

Pablo

Well here's my theory. IMHO the MOST used kitchen knife is a paring knife. Next a small chef knife. I take the Toyota car manufacturers advice. They have repeatedly said if they make $100 dollars on a Toyota Corolla or even break even they are happy! WHY? Because if they get you as a customer you will appreciate the brand and will buy again and again. Seems to have worked for them and me.

I like most knife makers I'm sure gets asked to donate knives for fund raisers from everything from VFD's to cancer fund raiser dinners. I donate a paring knife. I have NO CLUE how many folks that get to experience a great kitchen paring knife decide they love it and want to invest in more quality knives.

I could go on and on how a free $40 kitchen paring knife paid back immensely. Just one example. My twin daughters went to college. A mutual friend recommended them to seek advice of a mutual friend financial adviser at the University. She helped both incredibly. I made her a kitchen paring knife for free to repay her kindness. Can you say almost free college tuition! You can't put a price on that. So yes I'll keep making $40 kitchen paring knives.

But if someone new to my work wants a paring knife and I tell them the price of $40 they say thanks but no thanks I didn't think it would be that much. Oh well. lol

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

I will point out that the advice on pricing being given is from long established professional knifemakers with good reputations and large customer bases. I seriously doubt they got the prices they are giving when they were a novice.
We don't know how long the OP has been making knives or what his skill level is, but I am pretty sure Pablo, Lorien, and Devin are much more experienced and well known.

 

[Thescrawnylumberjack]

Realistically your friends and family shouldn’t be seeking a discount they should be happy to support you.

i have friends who I sell to maybe once a year and charge full price and others who I discount a bit because they buy 2-3 in a month. I have other friends who give me a budget and I build according to that. I have other who will happily scoop up discounted blades when they don’t meet my standards.

As for customers who I don’t know if they want to be difficult I don’t need to sell them anything. Most of my customers 99% of them are great and I’m able to accommodate their requests. However I’ve had others who are impatient and come off rude that initially I’ll attempt to work with but if the behavior continues I won’t take on the work.

 

[Lorien]

iI recall reading that Bob Loveless honoured his pricing on his multi year waitlist, even when his knives would fetch 4x the price, (I made that number up) at the same time.
Regardless of whether or not this is true, it's always stuck with me.