Dilemma ???

Heya Mindz,
Didn't imagine ya' had much interest in that one, was mentioned from a purely academic perspective in regards to the mechanism, or perhaps the lack thereof...

Thanks for the answer there, Maximus, you did manage to shed a bit of light on my questions.
 
Runs with Scissors;

Aye no worries mate, I know what you mean.
I was looking at something semi-similar in the form of the Cold steel "tri-fold" knife (well more correctly I was looking at an old advert in "Gun Mart" for a blackie collins' "tri-fold pocket knife" which has a shorter blade and zytel scales), Since that has no locking device as such I thought it might be ok (blade length etc permitting) but once again the question of exotic blades come into play.

Maximus

No worries on the flag thing chap, I had a feeling that it might have been tounge in cheek but the smiley threw me a little.

Cheers for the detailed insight into the legal side of things, its something you very rarley seem too get.

Originally posted by maximus otter
Just today, I showed a supervisor at work my Gerber 600 multitool. His first remark? "Is that legal?" :barf: Imagine his attitude if I'd been carrying my Sebenza/ SERE 2000/ Fallkniven A1/ Trailmaster!
Click to expand...

I know how you feel on this. On a duty a small while ago for St John Ambulance, I was using my Gerber 400 multi-lock to manipulate something using the pliers (exactly what escapes me now, but possibly my torch) when the officer incharge of the duty came over and gave me a stern talking too for brandishing a 'weapon' in public.
This somewhat confused me as for all intents and purposes she could only see the pliers protruding from my hand ! :confused:
For me this just demonstrates the state of play in the UK at present and how scared people are of what are really just simple tools.



On the original issue it seems my dilemma has been made all the more difficult :(

All in all I think I'd rather not carry a folding non-locking knife than carry one, and even though it might have implications the Delica still tempts me. From the original quandry I am starting to think that the SERE might be the better bet, as although it would see much less useage it would always be carried in a easily justifiable situation.
This said it still leaves me without a nice solid comfortable tool for my everyday job :(


Its a shame my Gerber 400 doesn't have a good quality pocket clip welded to it (now theirs a project) or maybe a kydex sheath with a tek-lok would work (so i can carry it without a belt), as even if the locking blade is not legal I find that alot easier to justify a multi-tool than a loan blade.

Ho hum, Cheers for all your help guys.
 
Funnily I thought I'd pay a visit to the police station today and see what a your average bobby on the beat thought.

I took the catalog page (from the spyderco site) for the CF Delica with me to show what kind of knife it was, and I have to say I was suprised at his responce.

Explaning my case to the grey haired chap on the desk I asked basically the questions I've asked here (regards legallity), and presented him with the catalog picture.

After a brief discussion, including assuring him it wasn't a switch-blade and me repeatedly asking about the legallity of carrying a locking blade (specifically mentioning the court case involving a locking knife being classed as a fixed blade) I was assured that I was perfectly with in my rights to carry the knife :confused:

Maximus:
I do not doubt what you've written (as you have a specific interest in knives so no doubt will have researched that aspect of the law), but this raises another question.

Does it once again fall on the officer in question to assess the situation ? i.e. In the above case the officer seemed to think the Delica was ok, so maybe didn't know the specific laws regarding knives (and hence carry of knives with locking blades).
Is it once again the 'luck of the draw' when it comes down to it ?

I just find it somewhat worrying that someone such as myself can walk into a police station and be told that I'm well with in my rights to carry something that could possibly land me in trouble down the line.
 
Does it once again fall on the officer in question to assess the situation ?
Click to expand...


I believe that is the case. I know very little about the whole legality issue in your area, however I have had a similar circumstance where I contact the police department directly for advise.

My issue was in regards to carrying a handgun. I have a CCP and wanted to check on some local laws I find absurd. That is, from what I understand in Virginia, you may carry your firearm concealed with your permit within the law with a few exceptions. One of them is where alcohol is server. Well from what I understand, there is no distinction in the law between a bar or restaurant where they server alcohol or a gas station or supermarket where you can purchase alcohol. What a pain in the a-s it would be to have to remove your firearm to go into a grocery store or 7-11 right?? So I called the local police department and questioned them on this point. The officer I spoke to said that he saw no problem with it as long as there wasn't drinking going on at the premises. But even with the go ahead for the individual I spoke to, I am still pretty sure I can be prosecuted under VA state law if a cop decided that he didn't like me carrying a handgun into 7-11 to get a pack of smokes. Personally I let common sense rule over the law. It may not be the best idea, but unless you give the police a reason, I think you would be safe carrying anything you want.
 
Marcelo Cantu

Hiya,

I had considered the Spydercard but every time I do, I drift back to the 'exotic items' thing again. It just shreaks "Concealed weapon" to me, and as such I think they're better left alone.

Thanks for the suggestion though, much appreciated.
 
The Option II is pretty exotic IMO. I will post a picture of it next to the Sere 2000 as soon as I take it BRB:)
 
Here ya go:
SereOption.jpg
 
The Option II has Carbon Fiber on one side and SS on the other. It's nice, but as much of a Microholic I am, It doesn't really compare with the Sere 2000
 
Mindz I,

Here is the case law supporting my position. Trust me, locking blades have become illegal via case law:

http://www.hrcr.org/safrica/arrested_rights/Harris_DirPubPros.htm

The material section reads:

"HARRIS v DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC PROSECUTIONS; FEHMI v SAME

QUEEN'S BENCH DIVISION

[1993] 1 All ER 562, [1993] 1 WLR 82, 96 Cr App Rep 235, 157 JP 205

HEARING-DATES: 21 July 1992

21 July 1992

CATCHWORDS:
Crime -- Offensive weapon -- Article with blade -- Lock knife -- Capable of being folded only on pressing button to release lock -- Whether "folding pocketknife" -- Criminal Justice Act 1988 (c 33), s 139

HEADNOTE:
For the purposes of section 139 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 a "folding pocketknife" is a knife which is readily and immediately foldable at all times simply by the folding process.

Where, therefore, defendants were each convicted of an offence contrary to section 139 of having with him in a public place without good reason or lawful authority a "lock knife" which could only be refolded by the pressing of a button to release a locking mechanism, and the defendants appealed on the grounds that the knives were folding pocketknives which, being less than three inches in length, could lawfully be carried in a public place:-

Held, dismissing the appeals, that lock knives were not folding pocketknives for the purposes of section 139 and the defendants had been rightly convicted."


maximus otter
 
Excellent thread ...

maximus otter - how would you view a Leatherman Wave then ? Afterall, this has a one-handed opening, locking blade just under 3".

I'm still unclear as to whether I should be carry this or not ???

A general consensus of yes or no from police officers old and young would give me greater peace of mind, but i guess that's impossible as this topic is so hazy in the U.K. as shown by Mindz_I.

Thanks for your input on this :)
 
Illegal, but what % of police officers do you think would let you go if you had a good reason for having it. e.g. a service engineer.

Thanks
 
Mindz I,

"Offence of having article with blade or point in public place.

139.—(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5) below, any person who has an article to which this section applies with him in a public place shall be guilty of an offence.

(2) Subject to subsection (3) below, this section applies to any article which has a blade or is sharply pointed except a folding pocketknife.

(3) This section applies to a folding pocketknife if the cutting edge of its blade exceeds 3 inches.

(4) It shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had good reason or lawful authority for having the article with him in a public place.

(5) Without prejudice to the generality of subsection (4) above, it shall be a defence for a person charged with an offence under this section to prove that he had the article with him—
(a) for use at work;
(b) for religious reasons; or
(c) as part of any national costume."

See sections 4 and 5 and - before you ask - there is no definition of "good reason" or "lawful authority."

maximus otter
 
Maximus; cheers for putting the time and effort into this thread that you have, its very much appreciated.

I've printed out the article and shall cast an eye over it later.

I realise you say their is no definition for lawful authority but could you give your personal take on it (as I'm not sure how to read it) ?

Cheers again to Maximus and everyone who's contributed to this thread.



****** EDIT ******

Just read through the case and it made very interesting reading I must say -
The arguments that most readily come to mind where used (Saftey and the fact that the blade is still folding), but shot down.

I can't say I see eye to eye on this though;
What, for example, of a knife which required a screw driver to undo a screw before it could be unlocked and folded back into the closed position? His answer was that it would be still a folding knife because it could be, albeit by a somewhat lengthy process, folded away.

In addition;

To be a folding pocketknife the knife has to be readily and indeed immediately foldable at all times, simply by the folding process

It seems once again the law comes down to personal deffintion of what is meant by "readily foldable" and how you define "the folding process".
For me (As most lilkey any knife collector) I would see a locking folder as readily foldable, and the activation of the lock-release a simple stage in "the folding process" allowing the blade to be instantly folded.
 
maximus otter:
Out of curiosity, how would you interpret 'good reason' from both a Police Officer's and personal perspective ?

I suppose it all comes down to 2 things...

1. The Police Officer's perspective on the day.

2. The defendants ability to prove beyond reasonable doubt that he does have 'good reason' for having it on his person. A jury may come in handy here ;)

Overall, I think I'll be OK with the Wave (at work).

Thank you maximus otter and Mindz_I for a very interesting thread.

Tardis
 
Tardis:

I tend to agree on the whole 'personal perspecitve' thing.

I know that I'm not a police officer but it seems that having a knife for work is one of the few valid reasons, so assuming your job is relevent you should be fine with the wave.


This covers what most of the reasons are and also reinforces what Maximus has already told us (regarding locking blades)

http://www.seax.demon.co.uk/kl.htm
 
Ok guys I think I've finally come to a choice :D (albeit not the one I'd have thought likley).

Since the Delica isn't legal to carry for EDC it seems to make sence that I should get the SERE.

My reasoning behind this is;
in the type of situation I will be carrying the SERE (various outdoor activities) I would have obvious good reason to have it with me.
As such it would seem to make sence that I purchase the more rugged knife for this task (since neither knife are now suitable for EDC), rather than the CF delica which I think I'd be scared to scratch more than anything :D

Cheers for your help everyone who gave their opinons and helped me come to my choice.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top