Dirty imported steels?

Kentucky

Kentucky

Joined
Dec 13, 2008
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Im not sure if Im phrasing this right so bear with me. Have you ever ran across a batch of steel that looked "dirty" for lack of a better term..Banding and streaks thru it, gets worse after heat treat..Sometimes you can grind it out and sometimes you cant. I saw a piece that looked almost like OSB board :confused: Im guessing that this is a product of poor quaility control.
 
Not sure about banding, but I recently used a bar of 440C that looked worse than D2 in terms of wigglies and orange-peel, etc even when rough-grinding it, and it sure didn't get any better at higher grits. It hardened and tested just like it should but looked terrible; I had no choice but to have it powder-coated :barf:. My powder coat guy was even flummoxed; it took him three tries to get decent coverage on it and he said he'd never seen that happen before on any steel.

I asked a bunch of knifemakers who made a name for themselves with 440C and they all said it was a QC issue that just happens sometimes, depending mostly on the mill where it was made. The guys that still use it stocked up years ago and will tell you it's not all the same just because it's marked "440C". Now I stick with particle/powder metals from Crucible or Carpenter when I want stainless, never had any problems with their stuff. :thumbup:

We might be talking about two different things, I'm not sure. But yeah, I suspect it's a quality-control thing from the mill.
 
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I just finished up a WSK for a customer out of some Admiral's 1095 and It has patches of banding in it. in my case the banding took place all along the bevel another spot on the right side flat but I think it looks good in my case. so I'm leaving it. Gives it some charector. :D

Jason
 
When makers come to test for the JS stamp some times when their blades fail you can see why in the fracture, occlusions and inclusions in the steel along the fracture line. This why we need to spend that extra money on quality steel from known sources. We as individual knife makers do not have enough economic power to have it made for us.

This is why I like 5160 from John Deer Load Control shafts, John Deer takes care of the quality control of the steel for us.

Makers who test the performance quality of their knives learn the fact that all 5160 is not the same.
 
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Banding, inclusions and other stuff may indeed look cool to some folks, but they make me nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs. Wouldn't that indicate a weak spot, as Ed described? I like consistant steel I can rely on; I have enough to be concerned with, without worrying about the steel failing even if I do my job right. The "orange-peel" 440C knives I mentioned earlier were sold with full disclosure about my concerns, and I'm still not sure I shouldn't have just thrown them away.

Ed Fowler said:
This why we need to spend that extra money on quality steel from known sources.
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I completely agree. There are lots of sources for extremely high-quality steel in almost any flavor you like. When you find a good reliable source for the alloy you want, stock up and stick with it. It's worth every penny in peace of mind, even if the differences in performance might seem to be very small. Every little bit counts.

Sometimes the performance difference is huge! On a different occasion, I ground some blades from one bar of "440C" that I bought from a well-known knifemaking-oriented retailer and they came back from HT marked- "45Rc-- this is 416". A complete waste of time and money, straight into the recycling bucket :mad: Needless to say, that retailer will never see another dime of my business.
 
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We normally buy our steel from Aldo or Kelly but evry now and again I sneak in a bar when ordering other stuff from a supply house.
 
See what that got you? :) I've always had excellent results ordering steel from USAknifemaker... the other general-purpose retailers... not so much.
 
Banding is the segregation of normal alloying elements and is the result of some of the normal effects of cooling of the ingot.
'Dirty' steel is the presence of non-metallic inclusions [ sulfides and oxides ] due to poor steel making practices. Dirty steel is far worse than segregated steel.
If it's from China you could get dirty, segregated and far from spec steel !!
 
So banding shouldnt be too much of an issue then Mete? if there were any inclusions I'd have to start over ofcourse but in my case I dont have any :)

Jason
 
When you do the math, the difference between using the highest quality steel you can find, and risking import steel, generally doesn't wash out to $5 in a blade. I understand the economics that lead someone to use inexpensive steel in a 500 pound tool, but a knife blade just doesn't use much material. Anything short of the best is false economy.
 
The inclusions will make it impossible to get a mirror polish as the inclusions will be torn out leaving pits ! Some of you like the segregation when etching as it produces suedo-damascus !!
 
I had a batch of 5160 from Admiral that had garbage all through it. Ruined a number of blades, or should I say they went into the junk area. Now all my steel is coming from Aldo or Kelly. Get good steel it is worth it and you customers will think so too.
 
Another thing to do is "Tell the Supplier" if the steel is dirty. They may not hear from a spring maker that there are pits and trash in the 5160, but you need to say so. They will usually replace it free.....and will hopefully check over the new bar before shipment.

If we don't tell the supplier, they can't be blamed for selling the steel in a dirty condition. Even the best suppliers can have a bad batch...what makes them the best suppliers is how they deal with those batches.
 
Yeah, that's right. I'll bet Admiral steel had no idea the 5160 they were selling was junk (I'm sure they source it from a reputable manufacturer in Pakistan) and they'll probably trip right over themselves to make it right too. :D

...sorry, couldn't help myself just now...
 
I was talking to a man in the industry last week, while he agrees much of made in China steel is not great, it is also cheap. He stated that he shot some chemistries, photo micro-graphs and performed other lab tests on some very clean and consistent 52100 that came out of China recently. He feels the mill that made it has their methods and quality control highly developed and very possibly may be making the best 52100 being made today.

I hate to be the one to pass this information on, but we have to give credit where credit is due.
 
Interesting this popped up, I usually buy from Aldo, Jantz, or usaknifemaker but last night I was ordering some quench oil from Mcmaster-Carr and decided to get some steel along with the order.

Has anyone used the 5160 from Mcmaster-Carr? I ordered 12' of it in .360 thick 2".

I feel they have great service and quality control but I might as well ask since it was brought up.
 
What gets me is this country used to be the King of Steel. We have let this fade away as we have many of our industries that created real wealth. When ore is turned into iron, real increase in value occurs. When the iron ingot is used to make a steel billet again real value is added. When that billet is rolled into sheet, plate, angle or what have you, real value and wealth is created. So much of this country's economy is now based on quick profit and paper wealth and the precieved increase in that papers value.

That and the fact pointed out by the black smith that showed me how to use forge, hammer and anvil. Through out history the country that has been on top has been the ones that had the best metal technology. This allowed them the luxury of building and educating. We gained our spot in WWII when we had to produce the steel, the planes, the ships, the tanks, the guns and etc. Then we rode out our glory and failed to keep up. Now the best steels come from other places and places like China and India dominate the common steel market and are paving the way to be the top dogs in the world as our quality steel industry declines and our structural steel production is on its last legs.

Our steel industry, auto industry and so many more were created by men of vision that looked to the future. Now the are run by accountants and "business" managers who "maximize profits" and worry more about the next 6 months and their bonuses and could care less about what happens in 5 years and look where they all are now.
 
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It started in the '70s when they said " We shouldn't DIRTY OUR HANDS WITH MANUFACTURING , but just do service and finance "
 
ib2v4u said:
What gets me is this country used to be the King of Steel. We have let this fade away as we have many of our industries that created real wealth. When ore is turned into iron, real increase in value occurs. When the iron ingot is used to make a steel billet again real value is added. When that billet is rolled into sheet, plate, angle or what have you, real value and wealth is created. So much of this country's economy is now based on quick profit and paper wealth and the precieved increase in that papers value.

That and the fact pointed out by the black smith that showed me how to use forge, hammer and anvil. Through out history the country that has been on top has been the ones that had the best metal technology. This allowed them the luxury of building and educating. We gained our spot in WWII when we had to produce the steel, the planes, the ships, the tanks, the guns and etc. Then we rode out our glory and failed to keep up. Now the best steels come from other places and places like China and India dominate the common steel market and are paving the way to be the top dogs in the world as our quality steel industry declines and our structural steel production is on its last legs.

Our steel industry, auto industry and so many more were created by men of vision that looked to the future. Now the are run by accountants and "business" managers who "maximize profits" and worry more about the next 6 months and their bonuses and could care less about what happens in 5 years and look where they all are now.
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This is pushing the limits of on-topic for this forum, so Stacy is likely to give us both a good wacking with his kebbie, but what you're saying is so very true and doesn't bode well for the future. Scientists and engineers are not given the respect or the pay they deserve, and certain bankers, lawyers and people working on wall street who contribute absolutely nothing of any value are the ones reaping the big rewards. People "earning" livings by buying and reselling commodity materials (copper, oil etc) and make a killing without producing anything of any value is a real problem. When things like "high speed" trading is the best way for the best and brightest minds to earn their living it is hard to blame them for doing it. But for them to earn all that money and at the end of the day contribute absolutely nothing at all doesn't sit right with me.

Pretty much the only useful innovation to come out of the banking industry was the ATM machine.

The idea of having to buy steel from China in order to get good quality rubs me in a bad way. Surely this isn't true (yet?)
 
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