-
Preorders are LIVE for the 2024 BladeForums Traditional Knife
Traditional Knife Information Thread - make sure you go in there and read up.
Requirements: Be a Gold or higher member or have been a member of the forums since 6/2023 with at least 100 posts in the Traditional Forum. Preorder is for people who live in the continental US only, international orders will be separate.Delivery expected in Q4 2024, hopefully before the holidays.
Discernable differences in 52100 vs. 1095 vs. 1085 vs. O1 vs. A1?
- Thread starter Barry H
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2001
- Messages
- 2,869
Barry: I will mention some of what I like about 52100. Not all 52100 for it isn't all the same.
It has been around for over 100 years, it continues to improve for one reason, it is a high performance steel by intent. Civilization rides, wheels turn on bearing steel. Competition is keen, the steel that last longest, works best, sells.
Factors that lead to lasting bearings are, a well balanced chemistry, all incidents during the pour (time and temperature)can be documented, Cleanliness, no slag or inclusions or voids or other contaminates. Treatment after the pour, forging, and thermal cycles also documented. Any defects will result in poor performance. Therefor the steel is rated by tight specifications.
All of this information is available to the customer, if he knows what to ask for, he can predict performance if he knows how to interpet the information. We got lucky, found an excellent batch for knives and continue to discover ways to push it to the limit.
When I first started making knives I believed all steel was high quality stuff. As time progressed I started asking questions when failure occured. These questions many times resulted in finding fault in the steel, not in methods. A lot can be learned by working with scrap steel, but one day the maker may desire to make great knives with performance in mind.
A new and exciting realm opened when we had a reliable batch of steel to work with. We have tons of 52100, all comming from the same melt. Experiments are all conducted on the same steel, so far the same 18 foot bar of 5 1/2 inch diameter. Reliable, consistent, and valid data can be developed when variables other then experimental are consistent.
This is a partial answer, but should give you the idea.
Thanks for asking the question.
It has been around for over 100 years, it continues to improve for one reason, it is a high performance steel by intent. Civilization rides, wheels turn on bearing steel. Competition is keen, the steel that last longest, works best, sells.
Factors that lead to lasting bearings are, a well balanced chemistry, all incidents during the pour (time and temperature)can be documented, Cleanliness, no slag or inclusions or voids or other contaminates. Treatment after the pour, forging, and thermal cycles also documented. Any defects will result in poor performance. Therefor the steel is rated by tight specifications.
All of this information is available to the customer, if he knows what to ask for, he can predict performance if he knows how to interpet the information. We got lucky, found an excellent batch for knives and continue to discover ways to push it to the limit.
When I first started making knives I believed all steel was high quality stuff. As time progressed I started asking questions when failure occured. These questions many times resulted in finding fault in the steel, not in methods. A lot can be learned by working with scrap steel, but one day the maker may desire to make great knives with performance in mind.
A new and exciting realm opened when we had a reliable batch of steel to work with. We have tons of 52100, all comming from the same melt. Experiments are all conducted on the same steel, so far the same 18 foot bar of 5 1/2 inch diameter. Reliable, consistent, and valid data can be developed when variables other then experimental are consistent.
This is a partial answer, but should give you the idea.
Thanks for asking the question.
- Joined
- Nov 3, 1999
- Messages
- 1,647
Thanks so much for the reply, Ed. Here's another questions. I have read that some knife makers refrain from using 52100 because it may do strange things in the heat treat. Is this a result of the steel's chemistry or perhaps a result of one's heat treat technique?
Regards,
Barry H
Regards,
Barry H
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2001
- Messages
- 2,869
Thanks Barry: In order to get the best of what 52100 can be several procedures are necessary.
1)The larger the stock you begin with, the greater the ratio of reduction by forging possible.
2)All forging needs to be done at low temperatures, 1,750f is the absolute top, this is where grain begins to grow. I forge at 1,625 f. Maximum, and forge down to too cold, using lighter hits toward the cooler range. When the steel quits moving quit hitting. Forging must be balanced, both sides receiving the same relative hits.
3) Multiple normalizing heats from the 5 1/2 diameter all the way to the finished blade, full normalizing heats during the reduction phaze, the more the better. I just sold a Bowie that had 18 full normalizing cycles during the forging process. The grain was as good as it gets. I miss this blade a lot.
3) Quench cycles during the final forging of the blade, full 18 second cycles in cool Texaco Type A. These events go a long way to refining grain and relieving stress.
As to having trouble with 52100, I now believe that the inclusion of Vanadium in the Chenmistry may improve cut but makes tough hard to achieve and keep cut. The vanadium refines grain but also keeps it too uniform. For tough you need a matrix not all the same. Grain of 12 and finer the AND FINER is very significant for many reasons, these will be explored in my future book specifically on forging. Fine randomly dispersed chromium carbides are plenty good enough and will actually compete very favorably with Vanadium without sacrificing tough.
Those who forge too hot will not be rewarded with a high performance blade, this and the right quenching oil seem to be the greatest limiting factors.
A lot of steels will yield a good blade if worked with purpose, thought and science behind them. 52100 seems to know no limit, you can put as much into a blade as you wish, it takes time, tincture of time is a friend to high performance blades, there are no short cuts. The Bowie I mentioned earlier required a lot of time and energy, I have some great photos and she will be featured in my next Ad. in Blade, there will be a two part photo, one of the overview, the insert, a close up of the grain structure. Most folks who looked at the blade had no idea what they were looking at three did and one purchased the knife. I dearly love the steel we are working with now it took 30 years to find her and learn how to nurture her, but it was worth it.
Most problems with high quality 52100 come from forging too hot to save time, using the wrong Quench Oil and not thoroughly exploring the dictates of quality control.
I hope I answered your question.
1)The larger the stock you begin with, the greater the ratio of reduction by forging possible.
2)All forging needs to be done at low temperatures, 1,750f is the absolute top, this is where grain begins to grow. I forge at 1,625 f. Maximum, and forge down to too cold, using lighter hits toward the cooler range. When the steel quits moving quit hitting. Forging must be balanced, both sides receiving the same relative hits.
3) Multiple normalizing heats from the 5 1/2 diameter all the way to the finished blade, full normalizing heats during the reduction phaze, the more the better. I just sold a Bowie that had 18 full normalizing cycles during the forging process. The grain was as good as it gets. I miss this blade a lot.
3) Quench cycles during the final forging of the blade, full 18 second cycles in cool Texaco Type A. These events go a long way to refining grain and relieving stress.
As to having trouble with 52100, I now believe that the inclusion of Vanadium in the Chenmistry may improve cut but makes tough hard to achieve and keep cut. The vanadium refines grain but also keeps it too uniform. For tough you need a matrix not all the same. Grain of 12 and finer the AND FINER is very significant for many reasons, these will be explored in my future book specifically on forging. Fine randomly dispersed chromium carbides are plenty good enough and will actually compete very favorably with Vanadium without sacrificing tough.
Those who forge too hot will not be rewarded with a high performance blade, this and the right quenching oil seem to be the greatest limiting factors.
A lot of steels will yield a good blade if worked with purpose, thought and science behind them. 52100 seems to know no limit, you can put as much into a blade as you wish, it takes time, tincture of time is a friend to high performance blades, there are no short cuts. The Bowie I mentioned earlier required a lot of time and energy, I have some great photos and she will be featured in my next Ad. in Blade, there will be a two part photo, one of the overview, the insert, a close up of the grain structure. Most folks who looked at the blade had no idea what they were looking at three did and one purchased the knife. I dearly love the steel we are working with now it took 30 years to find her and learn how to nurture her, but it was worth it.
Most problems with high quality 52100 come from forging too hot to save time, using the wrong Quench Oil and not thoroughly exploring the dictates of quality control.
I hope I answered your question.
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2001
- Messages
- 398
Hello Ed ,
Is that the Bowie you had at Reno you were telling me about ? Wow ,someone got a treasure for sure . I am looking forward to seeing the photos .
Regards,
Jerry
Is that the Bowie you had at Reno you were telling me about ? Wow ,someone got a treasure for sure . I am looking forward to seeing the photos .
Regards,
Jerry
DaQo'tah Forge
Banned
- Joined
- Aug 26, 2002
- Messages
- 1,333
Hi Ed Fowler, this is DaQo'tah
I always get all my steel (52100) from a Mr. Rex Walters. Now I don't have a gas forge, nor do I have any type of power hammers, so I order from Rex the steel forged down to ¼ inch by 2 feet by 1 ½ inch. (Enough to get two knives from.)
Now I wish to make this steel as High performance as I can. I have been always heating the steel in my home-made coal forge, and banging it so its flat, and putting a tip on it, and then I work down the tang on the horn so that I don't have to do so much grinding.
But then I am not sure what to do,,?
Should I forge heat it to normalize, then heat it to slowly cool and anneal?
And should I do some forge heats to normalize the steel a few extra times?
Also, I have some other questions about when I finish the first grinding before I heat treat the blade with the torch. I have it over-size by about a 1/16 inch. At this time would the 52100 steel get anything out of another trip to the coal forge to normalize it one more time before the heat treating?
The reason I ask that is I do 3 heat treatments over 3 days, then 3 tempering over another 3 days, it just seems like 3 normalizing heats before all the torch heat treatments would, well, "fit"?
I always get all my steel (52100) from a Mr. Rex Walters. Now I don't have a gas forge, nor do I have any type of power hammers, so I order from Rex the steel forged down to ¼ inch by 2 feet by 1 ½ inch. (Enough to get two knives from.)
Now I wish to make this steel as High performance as I can. I have been always heating the steel in my home-made coal forge, and banging it so its flat, and putting a tip on it, and then I work down the tang on the horn so that I don't have to do so much grinding.
But then I am not sure what to do,,?
Should I forge heat it to normalize, then heat it to slowly cool and anneal?
And should I do some forge heats to normalize the steel a few extra times?
Also, I have some other questions about when I finish the first grinding before I heat treat the blade with the torch. I have it over-size by about a 1/16 inch. At this time would the 52100 steel get anything out of another trip to the coal forge to normalize it one more time before the heat treating?
The reason I ask that is I do 3 heat treatments over 3 days, then 3 tempering over another 3 days, it just seems like 3 normalizing heats before all the torch heat treatments would, well, "fit"?
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2001
- Messages
- 2,869
Mt experience indicates that the more full normalizing heats the better, the flash normalizing heats are also very beneficial. The good thing is that the normalizing cycles will not hurt anything. Doc, the man who forges the steel down for us is truly a professional, has forged more steel (100's of tons) than all bladesmihts combined, the steel you get from him is as good as possible from industry at this time.
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2001
- Messages
- 1,152
Hi Ed and Jerry,
Here's an image of the bowie. She's a beauty and I feel proud and lucky to have her. Thanks, Ed!
-Jose
Here's an image of the bowie. She's a beauty and I feel proud and lucky to have her. Thanks, Ed!
-Jose
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2001
- Messages
- 2,869
This is not a very deep blade, still you can see seven transition bands easily, if you look close you can see ten. Both sides manifest absolutely
equal grain structure, no swirls, all clean and linear. This required counting the hammer blows, and judging the relative movement of the steel on each side, keeping it uniform. The major reflections from the interior martinsite cone are mostly above the dark line. I showed the blade to many folks, only a select few knew what they were looking at. If there is a way to push the steel further, I don't know at this time how. There are still some variables to explore, but they will take time.
equal grain structure, no swirls, all clean and linear. This required counting the hammer blows, and judging the relative movement of the steel on each side, keeping it uniform. The major reflections from the interior martinsite cone are mostly above the dark line. I showed the blade to many folks, only a select few knew what they were looking at. If there is a way to push the steel further, I don't know at this time how. There are still some variables to explore, but they will take time.
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2001
- Messages
- 398
That Bowie is awesome !!! I can't beleive how fine the grain structure is . I talked to Ed on the phone just after the Reno show and he told me about her but the pictures are worth 100,000 words .
I am completely new at this forging but reading all I can and want to get to a seminar soon . I guess what blows me away is the grain is so fine at the edge it basicly blends with just the eye and the spine is finer than most the blades I own have at the edge !!!! Way to go Ed ......
-Jose , You have one magnificent blade there . I am just totaly blown away at that knife blade .
Regards,
Jerry
Btw: I got so carried away with the blade that I forgot to look at the rest of the knife ... It is a beautiful knife as a complete package . Hope you don't mind but I am using it as my PC background .
I am completely new at this forging but reading all I can and want to get to a seminar soon . I guess what blows me away is the grain is so fine at the edge it basicly blends with just the eye and the spine is finer than most the blades I own have at the edge !!!! Way to go Ed ......
-Jose , You have one magnificent blade there . I am just totaly blown away at that knife blade .
Regards,
Jerry
Btw: I got so carried away with the blade that I forgot to look at the rest of the knife ... It is a beautiful knife as a complete package . Hope you don't mind but I am using it as my PC background .
- Joined
- Nov 14, 2001
- Messages
- 1,152
Hi Jerry,
I use pictures of Ed's knives as my backround too, so no worries...
There's a few more pictures of Ed's work in a new thread in the Gallery forum if you're interested in taking a look.
-Jose
I use pictures of Ed's knives as my backround too, so no worries...
There's a few more pictures of Ed's work in a new thread in the Gallery forum if you're interested in taking a look.-Jose