-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
Discontinued knives, what gives?
- Thread starter calyth
- Start date
Calyth, I am not sure of the exact extinction rate, but Spyderco has discontinued many models over the years. I am curious as to whether this year is a higher than normal number of discontinuations. This being my first full year on-line and paying attention to such things, I just do not know. I did not even know G-10 Harpies existed until I started browsing the forums a few months ago, and found they had already been discontinued. Thanks to ATE,I managed to obtain one. Obviously, old models must give way to make room in the production line for new ones.
calyth
#!/bin/sh of a man
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2002
- Messages
- 3,574
carlos,
I'm aware that the Goddard has been discontinued because I saw it on a huge discount (by full retail price standards) and I knew then it was discontinued.
But it seems that Mr. Jensen has marked a lot of knives as being available at Jan 1, 2003 because they're being discontinued. Are they all being discontinued, or are some of them going to be improved and have the older variations phrased out?
I'm aware that the Goddard has been discontinued because I saw it on a huge discount (by full retail price standards) and I knew then it was discontinued.
But it seems that Mr. Jensen has marked a lot of knives as being available at Jan 1, 2003 because they're being discontinued. Are they all being discontinued, or are some of them going to be improved and have the older variations phrased out?
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,731
Hi Calyth. We do in fact discontinue models every year. Generally, Distributors are not to sell retail. It would be unfair competition with the dealers to which they are distributing. Once a modelo is discontinued, then a distributor can sell retail. John is a distributor, but he makes sure to keep the discontinued product on hand to make it available to people that are hunting a discontinued model. More of a service to Spyderco collectors.
Sometimes, when a model is discontinued and Spyderco is sitting on a large inventory. The inventory will be closed out to a distributor and they will in turn offer them at a "close out" price. This would be poor planning on our part. The "best" way to discontinue a product is to simnply run out of inventory at year end when the product is discontinued.
We normally introduce 5 to 10 new models per year and we are too small of a company to maintain large inventories. When the new models are scheduled to come out, older models (based on sales) will become disco'd.
If we are just going to upgrade a design, the older version will still be considered a disco'd model.
hope that helps.
sal
Sometimes, when a model is discontinued and Spyderco is sitting on a large inventory. The inventory will be closed out to a distributor and they will in turn offer them at a "close out" price. This would be poor planning on our part. The "best" way to discontinue a product is to simnply run out of inventory at year end when the product is discontinued.
We normally introduce 5 to 10 new models per year and we are too small of a company to maintain large inventories. When the new models are scheduled to come out, older models (based on sales) will become disco'd.
If we are just going to upgrade a design, the older version will still be considered a disco'd model.
hope that helps.
sal
glockman99
RIP Dann, you were a good guy.
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2000
- Messages
- 21,269
To me, it seems a shame that many of the older "DC'd" models are "better" than many of the newer models. To me, that isn't progress...
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,731
Hey Dann. "Better" is always a matter of opinion. It seems that most reach a comfort level with a certain point in evolution. My Dad (91) is not interested in computers. That does not mean computers are not progress, could just be a different comfort level.
We try to create enough diversity to satisfy the interest of a wide range of tastes. We just can't keep them all. When sales drop off we have to take note. Maybe the design is gopod, but the price is too high and a lower cost method or material must be considered? Maybe it's time for a refinement in design / materials? (Such as the new SS Cricket). Maybe the interest of the ELU has wained and the design cannot carry the interst?
Some designs carry interest for many years; eg; the Police model has been a consistant seller for almost 20 years. The Goddard went 10. Some designs are around for only a batch or 2. We cannot predict the market.
Also try to keep in mind that in most cases, a disco'd model had slowed down in its sales curve. We must sell knives to keep making knives.
hope that helps. Sometimes it's difficult to determine how interested one might be in the "inner workings" of a company. Some just want to buy knives and could care less abnout the "drivers" in a company. Others are interested in philosophy, research and development. It is not our intention to bore you with details that are not interesting to you.
sal
We try to create enough diversity to satisfy the interest of a wide range of tastes. We just can't keep them all. When sales drop off we have to take note. Maybe the design is gopod, but the price is too high and a lower cost method or material must be considered? Maybe it's time for a refinement in design / materials? (Such as the new SS Cricket). Maybe the interest of the ELU has wained and the design cannot carry the interst?
Some designs carry interest for many years; eg; the Police model has been a consistant seller for almost 20 years. The Goddard went 10. Some designs are around for only a batch or 2. We cannot predict the market.
Also try to keep in mind that in most cases, a disco'd model had slowed down in its sales curve. We must sell knives to keep making knives.
hope that helps. Sometimes it's difficult to determine how interested one might be in the "inner workings" of a company. Some just want to buy knives and could care less abnout the "drivers" in a company. Others are interested in philosophy, research and development. It is not our intention to bore you with details that are not interesting to you.
sal
Sal - thank you for the detailed response and the insight...
However - I have to side with Dann on this one...well at least partially...
obviously new models featuring better steel and stronger locks are a major advancement (Gunting, ATR )
But it also seems to me that some old models are "better" than the new ones...but that has more to do with what I see as a philosophy decision taken by Spyderco...
Seems like more and more knives are made in the "smaller is nicer" approach...and I - OTH - prefer bigger blades, in the 4+ inch range...
If indeed this is a philosophy decision...than some of us would rather see the older models remain for a long time
However - I have to side with Dann on this one...well at least partially...
obviously new models featuring better steel and stronger locks are a major advancement (Gunting, ATR )
But it also seems to me that some old models are "better" than the new ones...but that has more to do with what I see as a philosophy decision taken by Spyderco...
Seems like more and more knives are made in the "smaller is nicer" approach...and I - OTH - prefer bigger blades, in the 4+ inch range...
If indeed this is a philosophy decision...than some of us would rather see the older models remain for a long time
calyth
#!/bin/sh of a man
- Joined
- Feb 23, 2002
- Messages
- 3,574
I think Sal or someone had started a thread before, but the smaller is nicer approach is a way for them to adapt to markets that have blade length limits. There's constantly people asking for sub 3" blades, and I just guess Spyderco have to make them to keep themselves afloat.
I just don't see how the laws will turn for the better. Up here, although the right for me to carry a blade is pretty vague (If I say it's for SD it'll be taken away, if I say it's for utility then it can stay), but there's no definate law as to what I could carry, that's why I get to keep the nice Starmate that I got from tracer-san. However, I think there are a couple of states arond that people couldn't get blades at a certain length, but the law allows them to carry one.
Strange laws, all because of those no good politicians and media.
It was strange at John's site that I saw some of the long run sellers, like Delica being flagged as discontinued. But since Spyderco considers outdated versions of the knife (ie ATS-55 version of Delica is considered discontinued while the VG-10 is around) I think that makes much more sense.
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2001
- Messages
- 932
Sorry guys I'm one of the small knife lovers. I find smaller blades more useful for EDC and I occasionally find myself where I cannot carry a blade longer than 2.5" even when I can carry a pistol. Strange I know but policies often make no sense. All of that aside three of my favorite knives have been discontinued; the Spur, the Co-pilot and now the Navigator so I know how everyone feels.
I do have one question for Sal. Will Spyderco introduce a small model to replace the Navigator? <Fingers crossed>
I do have one question for Sal. Will Spyderco introduce a small model to replace the Navigator? <Fingers crossed>
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2001
- Messages
- 3,415
I carry dual 4" folders, right and left(Millie CE and FRN Endura SE)... but I still carry and tend to use my smaller models more in public(Meerkat, 'Fly, Calypso jt lt, Cricket, Salsa(s)).
Spyderco does a great job covering the 2-3" range.
Spyderco does a great job covering the 2-3" range.
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2002
- Messages
- 746
Try a SS Dragonfly. Nice knife! Flat ground like the Military, with better ergonomics than Navigator.
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2001
- Messages
- 932
I actually have the SS Dragonfly but I prefer the feel of the Navigator. I actually like the blade design a little better too. Thanks for the comment though.
Sal Glesser
Moderator
- Joined
- Dec 27, 1998
- Messages
- 11,731
Hi Gadgetman7. The Navigator pattern is a nice pattern. The model was disco'd for a variety of reasons other than the design.
So, for the purposes of discussion, if you were going to keep the Navigator pattern, what would you want it made out of? Steel, grind, handle materials, MSRP price range etc.
sal
So, for the purposes of discussion, if you were going to keep the Navigator pattern, what would you want it made out of? Steel, grind, handle materials, MSRP price range etc.
sal
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2001
- Messages
- 3,415
how about the same shape(exacty same), flat grind S30V, topped with a swedge(ala calypso jr lt), G-10 handles... shouldn't be too hard to fit in the 70USD range would it?
- Joined
- Sep 30, 2001
- Messages
- 932
I think you've already tried G-10, SS (Pegasus), and aluminium. I'd like the same blade exactly in VG-10 with Carbon Fiber handles. MSRP $75-$100. I'd also like an FRN version. VG-10. MSRP about $50. If you made me pick just one I'd try the carbon fiber and sell it as a gentlemen's knife. Heck, really tick off the non-SAK folks and add a toothpick and tweezers.
(Just kidding.) Only thing is that I don't know how many carbon fiber versions you would sell and I guess the FRN would compete with the Dragonfly. That's why I probably wouldn't take VampyreWolf's suggestion. (I do think I would like that knife though.)
Sal, thanks for answering. I realize that I'm in the minority of Spyderco customers and my circumstances are somewhat unique. I just hope that you continue to develop the small knives. BTW the SS Cricket is a great idea and I do really like the Salsa's that I have.
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2000
- Messages
- 4,090
Well since I bought and have been carrying a Navigator I would like to add my ideas. I love the VG-10 steel and the Aluminum handle, but I think a carbon Fiber handle would make it more of a gentlemen's folder. Keep the blade steel, but make it a flat grind instead. Wait a minute, scratch that last idea, keep the hollow grind. The more I consider the Navigator, the more I like it as is. Just reintroduce it with carbon fiber handles and offer the "S" shaped blade like you are on the Meercat. I feel the Meercat is a poor replacement for the Navigator, it may be the same pattern, but the Meerkat doesn't have the good looks or handle material the Navigatoe does. I realise that old models have to disappear in order for mew ones to see the light of day, but sometimes the new product isn't as good as the old product. I feel the Navigator/Meercat is an example of this very idea.
I feel the Meercat is a poor replacement for the Navigator, it may be the same pattern, but the Meerkat doesn't have the good looks or handle material the Navigatoe does. I realise that old models have to disappear in order for mew ones to see the light of day, but sometimes the new product isn't as good as the old product. I feel the Navigator/Meercat is an example of this very idea.- Joined
- Mar 2, 2000
- Messages
- 1,526
I too love the Navigator as is but a 3 inch one while not staying in the "small" knife range would sure find a home in my pocket.
- Joined
- Apr 6, 2002
- Messages
- 1,356
I'm also a Navigator fan. Great handle, handy size, and I happen to think that it looks really good in the closed position. Nice lines!
I don't know what percentage of the production cost comes from the handle and what percentage comes from the steel. But if you need to cut production costs for these (or similar) models, I would much rather see you do so by offering a "lesser" steel, while still providing high-quality handle material. Many would probably disagree with me, but the reality is that for these knives, most any decent stainless steel will do. I was perfectly happy with GIN-1. Just please bring back the G10 handle. It feels more solid and confident in my hand than FRN, while being warmer and grippier than the Almite. Also, I don't care for open slots on the side of a lockback knife.
By the way, thanks for asking, and listening to our ramblings...
I don't know what percentage of the production cost comes from the handle and what percentage comes from the steel. But if you need to cut production costs for these (or similar) models, I would much rather see you do so by offering a "lesser" steel, while still providing high-quality handle material. Many would probably disagree with me, but the reality is that for these knives, most any decent stainless steel will do. I was perfectly happy with GIN-1. Just please bring back the G10 handle. It feels more solid and confident in my hand than FRN, while being warmer and grippier than the Almite. Also, I don't care for open slots on the side of a lockback knife.
By the way, thanks for asking, and listening to our ramblings...