DMT paste vs CBN spray, which one is better?

[stitchawl]

Unless I'm mistaken, you are using 'splits' of kangaroo leather, not the full thickness hide. 'Splits' are the hair surface of the hide split off from the 'suede' side. As in 'processed.' Because Kangaroo hide has a different cell structure from cow or horse hide, it's possible to split it into a much thinner 'split' without losing strength. This is one reason why it's so good for whip making, the thin split being much more flexible. We can purchase a whole hide, light weight, for $128, if you have your own shop, split it easily, or have a leather shop split it for you, and have enough Kangaroo leather for a few hundred strops, especially if nothing else needs be done to it other than gluing it down to a hard backing.

Considering that kangaroos have been around Australia for a long time (and kangaroo leather to keep all the parts inside,) I find it odd that the strops that Australian barbers use are made of horsehide or cowhide... I wonder why that is? I'm going to have to buy some myself and see just what the difference is. Perhaps you're right... Perhaps kangaroo leather is better. I know what results I get with cowhide. I know what results I get with Shell Cordovan Horsehide. It will be an interesting experiment; full grain unsplit kangaroo vs full grain unsplit cowhide.... split kangaroo vs full grain cowhide, split kangaroo vs Shell Cordovan horsehide. I guess kangaroo won't work for a hanging strop though... but I'll try it anyway just to see.

I'll do these tests both with compounds and without. It will be interesting... If nothing else, I'll have a couple of hundred pieces of kangaroo strop!

Stitchawl

 

[ksskss]

Well, Stitch, you are mistaken. The hide is NOT split. It's just substantially thinner. And if you can make a few hundred strops out of a hide, perhaps you can also feed a large crowd with a single loaf of bread too. Your math is WAY off. That you find things odd is amusing to me. I actually have folks in Australia who buy Kangaroo strops from me and are quite pleased with the results. Go figure.

So to save you a bit of work, I ran some 'roo through a rolling mill and compressed the hide to about half thickness. This resulted in a slight improvement in your fingernail experiment, requiring a bit more force for indentation. Stropping performance was not improved - or made worse - by this increased compression, further reinforcing the idea that this fingernail test is an irrelevant criteria.

"I'm going to have to buy some myself and see just what the difference is."

That you are just now trying kangaroo is disappointing. I had actually thought you would have already done so given your criticism of kangaroo. Best of luck in your 'objective' experiments. I hope you get sharper edges, which I suspect you will, agreeing with my customer's observations.
.
So back to the ACTUAL topic of this thread - the compounds, not the strops. Here's another picture of an edge produced using 0.025 micron polycrystalline diamond.

And here's another medium for the use of these compounds I mentioned earlier - applying the compounds on natural stones. For this use I want to strongly emphasize using ONLY compounds in a water soluble base, otherwise you run the risk of damaging your stone!

[video=youtube;AJqy49-yHXw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJqy49-yHXw&list=UU5jch5b_prBdRlmXc_sJ3mQ&feature=share&index=4[/video]


---
Ken

 

[stitchawl]

Well, Stitch, you are mistaken. The hide is NOT split. It's just substantially thinner.

So if the hide is not split, it contains the epidermis, the dermis, the papillary layer (which sort of holds it all together,) reticular layer, and the subcutis. And yet, I believe you told us that with strops, thinner is better, and the compound is really just sitting on the epidermis anyway, why pay extra for all the other layers?

And if you can make a few hundred strops out of a hide, perhaps you can also feed a large crowd with a single loaf of bread too. Your math is WAY off.

Having my math off wouldn't surprise me. But when an EdgePro strop is 6"x 1", and a whole hide can be between 15-20 square feet, that strikes me as a whole lot of strops... a whole LOT of strops.

That you find things odd is amusing to me. I actually have folks in Australia who buy Kangaroo strops from me and are quite pleased with the results. Go figure.

Not surprising. But how many of them are barbers who strop professionally? I'm sure they are pleased with the results. Leather usually makes a good strop. Of course we did have someone here in the forum last year who was less than pleased with their kangaroo strop. Of course, they might not have gotten it from you.
There are people in Newcastle who buy coal... Go figure.

So to save you a bit of work, I ran some 'roo through a rolling mill and compressed the hide to about half thickness. This resulted in a slight improvement in your fingernail experiment, requiring a bit more force for indentation. Stropping performance was not improved - or made worse - by this increased compression, further reinforcing the idea that this fingernail test is an irrelevant criteria.

I'm sure you'll forgive me if I find this hard to believe. After all, you're asking me to believe that hundreds of years of processing leather for Russian Leather was doing nothing, if not making the leather worse for stropping. Sorry, but I've got to lean on the side of several hundred years of leather workers and barbers saying it's just not so.

I'm just a neophyte when it comes to knife making, but I do know leather. I've been working with it for the past 55 years. And all those years of experience combined with a few hundred years of strop making history lead me to the conclusion that compressing the leather by working it while in a cased condition (not just put through a rolling mill...) make a significant difference in the way the leather will function as a strop. That's why the practice lasted a few hundred years, until the combination of reduction in demand for strops with cost of production cut back the number available today. Yet there ARE thousands of strops being made these days, but not very many of them are being made from kangaroo. Do you suppose that people who shave don't want such a sharp razor?

That you are just now trying kangaroo is disappointing. I had actually thought you would have already done so given your criticism of kangaroo.

I'm afraid that your own bias has lead you to misunderstand what I was saying. I've never criticized kangaroo for being kangaroo. I've said that it makes no sense to pay absurd prices for exotic leathers when you can get the same results with cowhide or horsehide. It's selling the Emperor's New Clothes, by touting the exotic. However, to be fair, I decided to try it for myself. If I'm wrong, I'll be happy to apologize to you. If I find that kangaroo leather gives significant improvement over other leathers, I will post that fact publicly. If not, I'll be just as happy to use the leather to make a pair of boots. (Or actually, make what ever the thickness/thinness of the leather dictates other than strops.)

It's basically the same comments I made when someone was selling 'borosillicate' glass 'steeling' rods for $70. A wonderful new exotic supper sharpener that was not commonly known. Also touting the exotic, except it wasn't! It was just that people didn't know the technical name for an ordinary product they probably already had in their kitchen. Borosilicate glass is ordinary bakeware glass marketed as 'Pyrex.' You can buy a 12" roasting pan made with borosillicate glass for $6 in the supermarket. It's used for chemical glassware, and you can (and I did) have a long borosillicate rod custom made for myself for under $10. There was no need to spend $70 for it. No... it's not the use of kangaroo leather that I criticized, it's the idea that someone should spend lots of money needlessly just because of the exotic name.

Best of luck in your 'objective' experiments. I hope you get sharper edges, which I suspect you will, agreeing with my customer's observations.

Thank you. I'm not suspecting anything. Neither for nor against. I'll use an EdgePro to take away as much of the human factor as possible. The rest is up to the leathers.


Stitchawl
.

 

[ksskss]

I guess this is a passion of yours to keep this conversation going ad infinitum. Having done plastic, hand and microvascular research for 12 years as a past profession, I'm vaguely familiar with skin anatomy. In fact I have publications in peer reviewed medical journals on the topic.

"why pay extra for all the other layers?" Well you should know this. If the leather is already quite thin, removing the supporting structures would result in something too thin. You should really be asking why go to the effort and expense to thin the already naturally thin leather by removing the supporting structures. Poor reasoning extrapolating an argument to the point of absurdity.

Professional stroppers? Really? How many barbers even use straight razors? MOST people stropping razors and knives do this on their own personal items. Health regulations have restricted using straight razors on the public almost to the extent of restricting the reuse of glass syringes by washing them out in a medical environment. Your arguments are truly getting desperate.

"hundreds of years of processing leather for Russian Leather was doing nothing" Not really. I respect your opinion on the matter in terms of how working cow or horse hide this way probably is of benefit. People have been making damascus blades for at least as long and when using inferior steel, it improved the blades. With more modern steels, this is now more an aesthetic consideration and not the only way to achieve a good blade. It isn't to say there is no layered steel of merit today.

I had a discussion with the maker of those borosilicate rods and another individual who had been in the glass manufacturing industry for his whole career. I came into the discussion exactly where you are on this point. I left with a much better understanding. Two knifemakers can start with the same steel and the knife that comes out will have quite different properties. That pyrex is a brand of borosilicate is quite true. That all borosilicate is identical to pyrex is not. You do realize that these particular rods are also microetched and not just a smooth surface for a reason? You also don't know his 'formula' or his R&D costs, etc. If you think R&D is free, you are in a dream world. Ask any pharmaceutical company. I'm not here to defend his products either. I've tried this rod and it worked for me for it's intended purpose. Don't buy it if you don't want to. Same with my products.

In the end your argument boils down to this. You don't like my prices. You have a strong bias to doing things the way you do so if it ain't broke don't fix it. And you have a strong need to beat on the drum of not liking my products and the prices I sell them for with an exceptionally strong need to justify your point of view. It's a bit of a crusade for you. This discussion can go on endlessly and has become rather more and more pointless. I hope you'll forgive me from waiting breathlessly for your 'results' when a very large number of people who have used my products are quite pleased with the results.

"I've said that it makes no sense to pay absurd prices for exotic leathers when you can get the same results with cowhide or horsehide." I'm glad you are approaching this topic without bias - not even having used Kangaroo leather strops.

I can hardly wait for your next post. You will probably win this 'argument' [certainly in your own mind] from the sheer exhaustion of responding to these posts, which I've patiently dealt with to this point.

Please don't buy my products. You'll hate them, they are too expensive and couldn't possibly exceed what you are using now. Will this make you happy?

You have succeeded in turning this discussion about compounds into a discussion between the two of us about the relative merits of Russian leather. I'm tired of beating this dead horse.

---
Ken

 

[Ben Dover]

Gentlemen,

I am an historian, not a biologist, so I will not engage either of you in the leather debate.

What I can add to this discussion is that I am a bit of a perfectionist, and my results with Kangaroo have been somewhat superior to my results with "Russian Red" on flat, compound treated strops.

I haven't used a hanging strop of Kangaroo, so I have no opinion there.

 

[Jason B.]

Professional stroppers.... Lol

As for Roo leather, I find it to polish better and has much less give than other leathers. I am speaking of using the strop bare without compound in which it has shown actual polishing to the bevel and noticeable differences in sharpness. Much more so than with horse or cow hide.

I would like to replace the leather on my Illinois strop with a strip of Roo though that might be a pricy replacement.

 

[stitchawl]

"why pay extra for all the other layers?" Well you should know this. If the leather is already quite thin, removing the supporting structures would result in something too thin.

Sorry, but wasn't it you that said in a previous post 'when it comes to stroping, thinner is better?'

Professional stroppers? Really? How many barbers even use straight razors?

Every one that I've ever been to.

Your arguments are truly getting desperate.

Are you familiar with the psychological term 'projection?'

You do realize that these particular rods are also microetched

No, they were not. They were smooth glass with a wooden handle.

You also don't know his 'formula' or his R&D costs, etc.

I... don't... care. He was selling a product based on a fancy, exotic name. I'm sure he was being honest in his mark-up. He is an honest man. But people need to know what they are buying, and while there are subtle differences in the production of borosillicate glass, it still costs LESS to produce than the glass used for ordinary windows. It's cheap stuff regardless of the name. It works well for steeling a knife, but the rim of an ordinary Pyrex measuring cup works just as well. I've been using a Pyrex-type borosillicate rod in my kitchen for years. I know that it works.

If you think R&D is free, you are in a dream world. Ask any pharmaceutical company. I'm not here to defend his products

No... you're here to defend your products. And I can understand that your anger stems from the possible loss of income.

In the end your argument boils down to this. You don't like my prices.

Nope. I don't care what price you ask. I don't like the fact that in today's marketplace, giving the customer some sort of exotic named product leads them into believing they are purchasing the 'Magic Beans,' when in fact, it may well be just another lima bean.

You have a strong bias to doing things the way you do so if it ain't broke don't fix it.

On the contrary, I'm always looking for new and better ways of doing things. Innovation is great. But when I see people selling 'Wonderful Strops' for $30 that are nothing more than a piece of leather glued to a pretty piece of wood, and the unknowing consumer thinks that because the company that sells them has the name "Perfect Strops" that they are getting value for their money, I won't hesitate to question it. In this case, I question the use of an exotic leather selling for a lot of money over the use of a non-exotic selling cheaply. Sorry if my questioning threatens you.

I hope you'll forgive me from waiting breathlessly for your 'results' when a very large number of people who have used my products are quite pleased with the results.

I forgive you. It's human nature to want to like something that cost one a lot of money. No one wants to feel as if they made a bad choice.

Please don't buy my products. You'll hate them, they are too expensive and couldn't possibly exceed what you are using now. Will this make you happy?

Nope. What WILL make me happy is to try kangaroo versus cowhide and horsehide and publish my results, which I said I wanted to do in a previous post. (I noticed that you pretty much ignored that, in your efforts to justify your product.) If kangaroo leather is significantly better, than your products will get a nice free bit of advertising. If it isn't significantly better, your sales may suffer. This shouldn't worry you as you know it's better, right?


Stitchawl

 

[stitchawl]

I would like to replace the leather on my Illinois strop with a strip of Roo though that might be a pricy replacement.

You can purchase an entire hide for around $125. Enough for several strops. While more expensive on average than cowhide, it's not like buying gold. It's just another leather with a higher level of sub-dermal collagen. Stronger and a bit more flexible than cowhide, and easily available. Certainly more available and cheaper than Shell Cordovan horsehide.


Stitchawl

 

[stitchawl]

What I can add to this discussion is that I am a bit of a perfectionist, and my results with Kangaroo have been somewhat superior to my results with "Russian Red" on flat, compound treated strops.

"Genuine" Russian Red leather is basically out of production. There is a new product being 'called' Russian Red that is very different.
Real Russian Red leather was intended to be use bare. NO COMPOUND. There was no need as the process of producing Russian Red was the key to it's effectiveness. Putting compound over the top of it would be like bronzing your Gold Medal.
(Here's a tip... if the 'color' of the strop is red, it is NOT genuine Russian Red leather. The term 'Russian Red' was for the process, not the appearance. It's neither made in Russia nor red in color.

Some years ago a stropping company was selling 6-8 different compounds and 8-10 different types of leather bench strops, "Russian Red" being the name of one of them. I bought it myself, hoping for a good Russian Red leather strop. Unfortunately, it wasn't. It was a nicely made leather strop that fit a well designed bench block, but it wasn't processed as Russian Red leather. Today there are a couple of hanging strops being advertised as "Russian Red" and in truth I haven't tried them, but at $50-$70 each, the price is simply too CHEAP for me to believe that they really have been processed as Russian Red leather. I'd expect to pay at least $100 and up, and it would be worth the money if the leather had been processed correctly. A strop like that gets handed down from father to son for many generations. I have my Grandfather's Russian Red leather strop now, and will leave it to my son when I pass over.


Stitchawl