DMT setup to replace water stones?

[yepimonfire]

I currently havea a 220, 1k, 4k, and 8k Norton waterstone setup. I'm looking at getting a coarse/fine Crystolon stone for initial bevel setting (which is really more like an ultra coarse, coarse stone, being 150 and 180 grit) a fine/ ex fine DMT (600/1200) and then finishing with 6/3/1 diapaste. Replacing because the stones are worn and I'm tired of donating the coarse and medium stones to my local water company.

Couple of questions.

1. Can a 1200 grit DMT be used as a final stone when I'm pressed for time and don't want to strop? I know i have a 600 grit dmt diafold and it certainly will not leave a useable edge. No matter how lightly I try to finish it always turns up a small burr. A 750 smith's diamond stone I own is more or less the same way.

2. Is a 6/3/1 diapaste progression sufficient following the 1200 dmt? How would stopping at a 6 or 3 leave my edge? I know an 8k Tech Diamond paste (tube says 2 micron) finish is significantly finer than my 8k waterstone, which rates at 3 micron.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Jason B.]

I don't know if I would recommend that set-up. 3 strops of different compound will be great to apply a mirror edge but you run a high risk of rounding out the edge. Yes, you can and the 1200 was intended to be followed by the 6/3/1 dia-paste. If you follow the link in my Signature you will find a lot of information about using DMT plates and the compounds, you will also find pictures of what each stone and compound does to the edge.

These day's I've become a big Shapton fan, I started by trying out the pro stones and now I'm hooked on the Glass stones and accessories. They are amazingly fast and work better than most everything I have used, and I have used about everything.

Here would be my Diamond stone recommendation though,

DMT Duo-sharp Coarse/Fine with Handamerican 1 micron diamond spray or any other high quality 1 micron diamond compound. Polished toothy edges are far better than over polished edges.

For a coarse stone look to the flood of cheap 140-150 grit diamond plates on eBay and several other sites. They work great for bevel setting and if flat can be used for stone flattening. I recommend this for bevel setting because very coarse plates tend to wear out a little faster because they get abused more. I wore through a $100 Atoma plate in 6 months and said no more, I keep the expensive plates around to lap my waterstones and use the cheap plates to set bevels. It has proven to be a more effective method.

 

[yepimonfire]

I don't know if I would recommend that set-up. 3 strops of different compound will be great to apply a mirror edge but you run a high risk of rounding out the edge. Yes, you can and the 1200 was intended to be followed by the 6/3/1 dia-paste. If you follow the link in my Signature you will find a lot of information about using DMT plates and the compounds, you will also find pictures of what each stone and compound does to the edge.

These day's I've become a big Shapton fan, I started by trying out the pro stones and now I'm hooked on the Glass stones and accessories. They are amazingly fast and work better than most everything I have used, and I have used about everything.

Here would be my Diamond stone recommendation though,

DMT Duo-sharp Coarse/Fine with Handamerican 1 micron diamond spray or any other high quality 1 micron diamond compound. Polished toothy edges are far better than over polished edges.

For a coarse stone look to the flood of cheap 140-150 grit diamond plates on eBay and several other sites. They work great for bevel setting and if flat can be used for stone flattening. I recommend this for bevel setting because very coarse plates tend to wear out a little faster because they get abused more. I wore through a $100 Atoma plate in 6 months and said no more, I keep the expensive plates around to lap my waterstones and use the cheap plates to set bevels. It has proven to be a more effective method.

The shaptons were something i was considering as well, my main concern is will it sharpen s30v and zdp-189 quickly? I can sharpen them with my waterstones but it does take a significantly longer amount of time than non carbide steels, even when it is only somewhat dull.

 

[ToddS]

I would not waste time with the 6 and 3 micron strops unless you are trying to make a mirror bevel. If you are only interested in the edge you can use the 1 micron after virtually any grit, even the DMT coarse as Jason suggested.

 

[yepimonfire]

I would not waste time with the 6 and 3 micron strops unless you are trying to make a mirror bevel. If you are only interested in the edge you can use the 1 micron after virtually any grit, even the DMT coarse as Jason suggested.

What happens at this level? Does the edge actually thin out and get as sharp as if i went through the whole progression? I went from a fine india to green compound once and i found unless i stropped it 500+ times it never did get as sharp as if i went all the way up to 8k before stropping. That's based on how easily it cut phonebook paper. Also i'm confused @ Jason B.

Last time i came here asking for waterstone replacements you told me to get DMT, and failing that get a nubatama ume 220, I was also told by you that there is no point using anything but diamonds on high carbide steel.

 

[awestib]

I have no experience with the Shapton yet but if you go the route of DMT diamonds I would second the coarse-fine or coarse-extra fine combo and a CBN or diamond strop after. I don't have any experience with following that with a strop as fine as 1 micron diamond but I like the idea of matching stone-compound grits for final burr removal so consider a bit coarser compound after the fine (maybe 16 micron CBN/Diamond?) or extra fine DMT (maybe 8 micron CBN/Diamond?) also!

Regarding high carbide steel and non-diamond abrasives, I think it only matters (if at all ...) when you go small enough with your abrasives.

 

[yepimonfire]

I have no experience with the Shapton yet but if you go the route of DMT diamonds I would second the coarse-fine or coarse-extra fine combo and a CBN or diamond strop after. I don't have any experience with following that with a strop as fine as 1 micron diamond but I like the idea of matching stone-compound grits for final burr removal so consider a bit coarser compound after the fine (maybe 16 micron CBN/Diamond?) or extra fine DMT (maybe 8 micron CBN/Diamond?) also!

Does the EF following coarse sufficiently remove the coarse scratches? Is the coarse DMT aggressive enough to reprofile edges in a reasonable amount of time?

Fwiw I'm most definitely not a fan of toothy edges at all. As a comparison, the edge that comes off a 1k waterstone or fine india is way too toothy for me.

 

[awestib]

Does the EF following coarse sufficiently remove the coarse scratches? Is the coarse DMT aggressive enough to reprofile edges in a reasonable amount of time?

Fwiw I'm most definitely not a fan of toothy edges at all. As a comparison, the edge that comes off a 1k waterstone or fine india is way too toothy for me.

I find it good enough, the EF after the coarse. If you want more polish then I like the Spyderco UF stone after. I still don't have the benchstone but I use my UF rod from the Sharpmaker. That stone however is rated 3 micron or so, so the strop after that really should be about the same or somewhat finer even.

The coarse sometimes takes some time for a very dull or even neglected edge. In fact just yesterday I used the coarse DMT (a well worn one though) on a VG10 kitchen knife and I was somewhat surprised how long it took to establish a proper new edge. That being said, I cleaned the edge with two light strokes into a 1000 JWS so maybe I dulled it a bit too much?

 

[yepimonfire]

I find it good enough, the EF after the coarse. If you want more polish then I like the Spyderco UF stone after. I still don't have the benchstone but I use my UF rod from the Sharpmaker. That stone however is rated 3 micron or so, so the strop after that really should be about the same or somewhat finer even.

The coarse sometimes takes some time for a very dull or even neglected edge. In fact just yesterday I used the coarse DMT (a well worn one though) on a VG10 kitchen knife and I was somewhat surprised how long it took to establish a proper new edge. That being said, I cleaned the edge with two light strokes into a 1000 JWS so maybe I dulled it a bit too much?

Does the 1200 leave a serviceable edge with minimal burr?

 

[awestib]

Does the 1200 leave a serviceable edge with minimal burr?

The edge off the EF stone is still "toothy" AND I'd say that how much burr remains after stone work is more up to your ability. With my abilities I'd say there is always a bit of a burr unless I put a lot of work into folding the burr, abrading it again and again with feather light pressure etc. Stropping after is just a bit easier.

 

[ToddS]

What happens at this level? Does the edge actually thin out and get as sharp as if i went through the whole progression? I went from a fine india to green compound once and i found unless i stropped it 500+ times it never did get as sharp as if i went all the way up to 8k before stropping. That's based on how easily it cut phonebook paper. ....

I can't speak to your counter-example, but I have observed this effect consistently on various diamond sprays.

There is an example mid-way down this page: https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/01/13/what-is-a-burr-part-2/ showing a knife sharpened on a cheap ceramic hone that was conditioned with an Atoma 400 prior to use. This is an ugly edge, nowhere near as sharp as should be obtained from a DMT fine, and yet it is easily brought to shaving sharp with a handful of laps on 0.25 micron diamond.

 

[awestib]

I can't speak to your counter-example, but I have observed this effect consistently on various diamond sprays.

There is an example mid-way down this page: https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/01/13/what-is-a-burr-part-2/ showing a knife sharpened on a cheap ceramic hone that was conditioned with an Atoma 400 prior to use. This is an ugly edge, nowhere near as sharp as should be obtained from a DMT fine, and yet it is easily brought to shaving sharp with a handful of laps on 0.25 micron diamond.

Nice example. The same source shows how the backing of abrasives (leather vs. balsa etc.) may influence the present of a burr more than the abrasive itself.

 

[Jason B.]

What happens at this level? Does the edge actually thin out and get as sharp as if i went through the whole progression? I went from a fine india to green compound once and i found unless i stropped it 500+ times it never did get as sharp as if i went all the way up to 8k before stropping. That's based on how easily it cut phonebook paper. Also i'm confused @ Jason B.

Last time i came here asking for waterstone replacements you told me to get DMT, and failing that get a nubatama ume 220, I was also told by you that there is no point using anything but diamonds on high carbide steel.

My responses are only as consistent as your questions.

 

[yepimonfire]

I can't speak to your counter-example, but I have observed this effect consistently on various diamond sprays.

There is an example mid-way down this page: https://scienceofsharp.wordpress.com/2015/01/13/what-is-a-burr-part-2/ showing a knife sharpened on a cheap ceramic hone that was conditioned with an Atoma 400 prior to use. This is an ugly edge, nowhere near as sharp as should be obtained from a DMT fine, and yet it is easily brought to shaving sharp with a handful of laps on 0.25 micron diamond.

Interesting. It appears to complete the apex, polishing the teeth without removing them, unlike in the images you have of progression through high grit stones where they're mostly removed. Perhaps my counter-example was a fluke or poor technique one time. Or i could have just had a large burr I failed to reduce sufficiently. Also explains why the factory sharpened knives and box cutter blades that have obviously gone from belt sander to buffing wheel are still razor sharp. Why do you suppose over-polishing tends to round off the edge?

 

[ToddS]

Interesting. It appears to complete the apex, polishing the teeth without removing them, unlike in the images you have of progression through high grit stones where they're mostly removed. Perhaps my counter-example was a fluke or poor technique one time. Or i could have just had a large burr I failed to reduce sufficiently. Also explains why the factory sharpened knives and box cutter blades that have obviously gone from belt sander to buffing wheel are still razor sharp. Why do you suppose over-polishing tends to round off the edge?

First, I would suggest that abrasive stropping is more complex than sharpening on hones/stones. Do not expect great results without some experimenting and technique development. I have found chromium oxide to provide inconsistent results, I mostly understand why now, but at the time it was very frustrating.

"Rounding-off" is not a negative, this is the key to avoiding/eliminating a burr. The goal is to achieve just the right amount of "rounding-off." My approach lately has been a two-step stropping, one "coarse" abrasive on denim to micro-convex and remove any burr, followed by a "fine" diamond on leather to restore keenness.

 

[fsatsil]

1. Can a 1200 grit DMT be used as a final stone when I'm pressed for time and don't want to strop? I know i have a 600 grit dmt diafold and it certainly will not leave a useable edge. No matter how lightly I try to finish it always turns up a small burr. A 750 smith's diamond stone I own is more or less the same way.

If you aren't getting a useable edge off the coarse and fine DMT something is definitely wrong. Have you tried a few strokes on the strop after the fine DMT?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

If you aren't getting a useable edge off the coarse and fine DMT something is definitely wrong. Have you tried a few strokes on the strop after the fine DMT?

Yeah, something isn't right in that. If burring is the main issue, either pressure is too heavy, or the blade is rolling forward into the apex during the stroke (dramatically increases lateral pressure against the apex), or both.


David

 

[yepimonfire]

If you aren't getting a useable edge off the coarse and fine DMT something is definitely wrong. Have you tried a few strokes on the strop after the fine DMT?

I actually just attempted going from the fine dmt to a strop last night in light of the comments here. That actually gave me a good edge. I can minimize the burr by doing ultra light strokes alternating but there is still a tiny one, granted this is sharpening softer steels like kitchen knives, aus 8a, and 1055 carbon (I use a 600 dmt rod for curved blades like kukri's), I haven't tried it on s30v yet. I don't think it's the curvedness of the rod either because it happens on a 750 smiths diamond sharpener as well. It can usually be removed with a 600 grit soft arkansas or fine india, so I really think it's just the aggressiveness of the diamonds on low wear steel.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

I actually just attempted going from the fine dmt to a strop last night in light of the comments here. That actually gave me a good edge. I can minimize the burr by doing ultra light strokes alternating but there is still a tiny one, granted this is sharpening softer steels like kitchen knives, aus 8a, and 1055 carbon (I use a 600 dmt rod for curved blades like kukri's), I haven't tried it on s30v yet. I don't think it's the curvedness of the rod either because it happens on a 750 smiths diamond sharpener as well. It can usually be removed with a 600 grit soft arkansas or fine india, so I really think it's just the aggressiveness of the diamonds on low wear steel.

That aggressiveness is a good thing, in that the diamond will cut low-wear steels very cleanly at extremely light pressure, as compared to other abrasives. Abrasives not cutting as cleanly at a given pressure will tend instead to bend/burr the steel as the edge becomes thinner & finer.

As an example, diamond has become my favorite for Victorinox blades (very low-wear stainless), and I've found they take great edges on DMT's Coarse, Fine and EF hones especially, with a minimal need for stropping. A while back, I considered diamond to be overkill on those blades; but tuning my touch to a much lighter level on those hones finally made the difference, and my view has changed radically about sharpening them with diamond.

There will always be at least SOME burring, no matter the hone or abrasive. But I've begun to like diamond for it's ease in cutting the steel with an extremely light touch. Pressure against the fine edge is what will burr it, more than anything; so minimizing pressure while still cutting the steel will produce a cleaner edge.

(BTW, the same lighter touch that I applied with diamond to low-wear steels, has paid off across the board with everything else I use, no matter the steel or abrasive type.)


David

 

[yepimonfire]

That aggressiveness is a good thing, in that the diamond will cut low-wear steels very cleanly at extremely light pressure, as compared to other abrasives. Abrasives not cutting as cleanly at a given pressure will tend instead to bend/burr the steel as the edge becomes thinner & finer.

As an example, diamond has become my favorite for Victorinox blades (very low-wear stainless), and I've found they take great edges on DMT's Coarse, Fine and EF hones especially, with a minimal need for stropping. A while back, I considered diamond to be overkill on those blades; but tuning my touch to a much lighter level on those hones finally made the difference, and my view has changed radically about sharpening them with diamond.

There will always be at least SOME burring, no matter the hone or abrasive. But I've begun to like diamond for it's ease in cutting the steel with an extremely light touch. Pressure against the fine edge is what will burr it, more than anything; so minimizing pressure while still cutting the steel will produce a cleaner edge.


David

I may just need to modify my technique using diamond then. On practically any stone I use I start of sharpening with moderate pressure to speed up the sharpening process, to finish I get lighter with alternating strokes. Perhaps i should just start light on diamond.