DMT & Spyderco Bench Stone Progression - Christmas Present

G

G Clarke

Joined
Apr 2, 2004
Messages
22
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Hello,

I need insights and opinions on trying to determine a grit progression using bench stones from Spyderco, DMT or a combination of both.

My goal is to stay with products that only need to be cleaned and not re-profiled or flattened.

It seems you can edge-trail on a higher-grit stone and achieve a strop-like effect, or keep the edge maintained, without leather with rouges or diamond applications.

Online reading and videos have led to the following initial starting point:

1) PROFILE
DMT - Extra Coarse - 220 - Black​

2) REFINE & PREPARE FOR POLISH
DMT - FINE - 600 - Red
-or-
Spyderco - Medium - 600 - Dark Blue Box​

3) POLISH
DMT - Extra Fine - 1,200 - Green
-or-
Spyderco - Fine - 1,800 - Light Blue Box​

4) MAINTAIN EDGE
Spyderco - Ultra Fine - 2,000 - Black Box​

Steps 2 and 3 are where I am not sure if one is better than the other. Best to stay with all diamonds throughout the process, or, is there a transition area where ceramics do a better job than diamonds when it comes down to later part of the process?

A stop at the local knife shop led to a proposed bill of over $800, that is not happening.

Thank You in advance to those who are able to help guide me with this decision.

Clarke
 
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I would just pick up a set of DMTs:
XC, C, F, EF, EEF. I'd also spring for the continuous surface if possible.

Pick up some 1 micron diamond paste and apply to balsa or poplar. While the ceramics do a very nice job on many steels, I have never liked swapping abrasives media in a progression if it can be avoided. If I have to choose between the two, diamond gets the nod.

In this case you're building a set, I'd do just that and build a complete progression using one abrasive type. Stropping at any stage is optional, but I'd at least strop on plain paper or newspaper - this also works great to reveal any latent burrs for further removal.

I would also avoid edge trailing on any harder fixed stone like ceramic or diamond plate even at the higher finishes, leave that for strops, waterstones, sandpaper etc.
 
Ceramics likely won't help much at all, if used prior to the EF DMT. All of the DMT diamond options from XC thru EF will be at least as coarse or coarser in finish as the coarsest Spyderco ceramic (medium). The EF DMT begins to emulate the finish left by the medium Spyderco, leaving a very fine 'satin' finish. Using any of the ceramics prior to the EF DMT will essentially be wasted effort, because any diamond following it will completely undo what the ceramics have done.

If you're determined to use both diamond and ceramics, use ONLY diamond up through the EF DMT; and then, after doing that, go to the Spyderco ceramics. As I mentioned, the EF DMT will leave a finish very similar to the medium Spyderco ceramic; therefore, you might even skip the medium Spyderco and go straight from the EF DMT to the 'Fine' Spyderco ceramic and beyond.

Don't try to compare diamond and ceramics based on the 'grit' number alone, because the diamond is much, much more aggressive than the ceramics at similar rated 'grit' numbers (the 'grit' scales for each are completely different). This is why an EF DMT will leave just as coarse a finish as the 'medium' Spyderco, because the diamond is cutting effectively 3X as deeply as the alumina in the ceramic (there's a 3X difference in hardness between them).

In a nutshell, with the options specifically listed in your post, follow a sequence like this:
DMT Extra-Coarse (220) > DMT Fine (600) > DMT Extra-Fine (1200) > Spyderco 'Medium' (OR skip that) > Spyderco 'Fine' > Spyderco 'Ultra-Fine'.

I'd personally opt for a DMT 'Coarse' (325) as the starting-off point, instead of the DMT Extra-Coarse, unless you're planning on doing some very heavy regrinding of bevels on big/thick blades, or with relatively large blades in very wear-resistant steels (S30V and up). The XC DMT will leave some very deep scratches that take a lot of work to clean up; if you don't really need that much 'grunt' in your sharpening, you may find it's not worth it, more often than not. A bench-sized Coarse DMT is a workhorse, and can accomplish most heavy work easily, after which finishing and refining with the DMT 'Fine' will be much easier in cleaning up the scratch pattern.


David
 
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David,

I appreciate you taking the time and sharing such a detailed and explanatory response.

Do you have a preference of the below options?


Option 1: DMT Coarse (325) > DMT Fine (600) > DMT Extra-Fine (1200) > Spyderco 'Fine' > Spyderco 'Ultra-Fine'


Option 2: DMT Coarse (325) > DMT Fine (600) > Spyderco 'Medium' > Spyderco 'Fine' > Spyderco 'Ultra-Fine'


If I'm not stropping, do you think the Spyderco 'Ultra-Fine' is useful or a bit overkill for day to day kitchen work ... or, is it a edge maintainer if used every couple days edge leading?

Again, Thank You,
Clarke
 
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HeavyHanded said:
I would just pick up a set of DMTs:
XC, C, F, EF, EEF. I'd also spring for the continuous surface if possible.

Pick up some 1 micron diamond paste and apply to balsa or poplar. While the ceramics do a very nice job on many steels, I have never liked swapping abrasives media in a progression if it can be avoided. If I have to choose between the two, diamond gets the nod.

In this case you're building a set, I'd do just that and build a complete progression using one abrasive type. Stropping at any stage is optional, but I'd at least strop on plain paper or newspaper - this also works great to reveal any latent burrs for further removal.

I would also avoid edge trailing on any harder fixed stone like ceramic or diamond plate even at the higher finishes, leave that for strops, waterstones, sandpaper etc.
Click to expand...


Heavy Handed,

Thank You for the information and insight, I appreciate you taking time out of your day to help with my decision.

I did not know about edge trailing not being good when done on ceramic or diamond plate ... that is being written down in my notebook.

All the best.
Clarke
 
G Clarke said:
David,

I appreciate you taking the time and sharing such a detailed and explanatory response.

Do you have a preference of the below options?


Option 1: DMT Coarse (325) > DMT Fine (600) > DMT Extra-Fine (1200) > Spyderco 'Fine' > Spyderco 'Ultra-Fine'


Option 2: DMT Coarse (325) > DMT Fine (600) > Spyderco 'Medium' > Spyderco 'Fine' > Spyderco 'Ultra-Fine'


If I'm not stropping, do you think the Spyderco 'Ultra-Fine' is useful or a bit overkill for day to day kitchen work ... or, is it a edge maintainer if used every couple days edge leading?

Again, Thank You,
Clarke
Click to expand...

My own preferences these days don't even include ceramic hones, most of the time. I've been very happy with edges finished at either 'Fine' or 'EF' diamond (DMT), especially for kitchen use; either grit makes for great toothy slicing. On occasions when I've used a ceramic for touch-ups, it's usually either the 'Medium' or 'Fine' Spyderco; my preference is biased toward the still-toothy 'bite' left by the Medium, so I favor it a little more than the Fine Spyderco. I don't have the UF Spyderco, and really haven't felt a need for it. Any further refinement that I've done is usually by stropping on hard-backed denim with aluminum oxide compound like white rouge, Flitz paste or similar polishing compounds. I've also used 3µ/1µ diamond paste (DMT) on wood (basswood, balsa, etc), for high-wear steels like S30V. Any of those stropping options have essentially done all that I need, in terms of edge refinement to a polished finish. I've moved away from ceramics, to a large degree, because of their tendency to form burrs if/when pressure is just a little too heavy. They can work well, but I've just found it simpler to refine & polish edges by other means. A HARD strop of hardwood with diamond or AlOx compound works very well for that, with virtually no tendency to form burrs in the process. And such strops are likely the best means by which to strip away really stubborn burrs, as well.


David
 
You can always just stick to one type of stone like the diamond DMT and get XC-EEF stones and if you want an even more polished edge pick up some of the DMT compounds and you can experiment by making some strops out of leather, balsa, mdf, applying on paper, and various other things. Keeping with one type of stone may help in lessen the learning curve between stones as diamond, ceramic, india, crystolon, etc all behave differently so if you building a set this may be of some benefit.
 
Here's my contribution and maybe you can benefit from my initial naivete. I went and got the whole DMT progression plus a couple of shapton glass hones in high grits.

If you're going to go X Coarse, I'm thinking you might as well get the XX Coarse to make that job faster. then go to Coarse, then Fine DMT. what you do after the Fine, I have no thought as I'm still feeling my way with my options.

Right now, this has been my progression. XX Coarse because I'm reprofiling. Then Coarse, skipping the X Coarse. Then Fine. For my kitchen knives which is what i'm in the middle of doing, I think I stop at extra fine.
 
All great info above! I have stepped away from almost any progression, particularly on my kitchen knives (mainly because I have not had any time for any outdoor activities, not even preparing wood for a bon fire in the backyard - sad I know). I have noticed no real improvement if I go through all the diamond grits for instance, provided that I use very light pressure on them. My favourite steps are DMT coarse (well used/broken in) and refining edge leading on same stone until I can shave my arm hair o.k. White compound (BRKT or USA knifemaker or Mother'sMag. I do not like the Tormek paste, it dries out to "concrete") on denim if I need more push cutting performance. That's it.

One reason is likely little time and little patience. For maintenance I do a few alternating edge leading strokes on the same DMT coarse. It is a 2x6 inch stone (I use the dotted one but only because they come with a base and a plastic lid, solid, easy to clean and the diamonds are protected by the lid when not in use).

I have experimented with applying a microbevel on the brown/gray medium Spyderco ceramics and I agree to above they easily produce an additional burr if not completely clean and super light pressure but it does work and refines the cutting edge towards some tree topping with still some "bite".
 
I've been using a stepped DMT progression for quite some time now and I don't think it has any deficiencies in making edges. I got the idea from a former bladeforums member.

DMT: XXC, C, EF

You'll notice I'm skipping up two grades each time. This saves money and time. The only possible down side is you won't remove absolutely every trace of the scratch pattern from the previous plate without some extra effort. But that's almost 100% a COSMETIC concern. If you don't care about the bevels *looking* perfect, then it's a non-issue. The edges made on the C or EF perform exactly as you'd expect. Though, as others have said here, the finish left by the EF is no where near what you might expect from "extra fine". It's a really, really nicely performing edge. But it's not highly polished. It will shave hair like crazy. But it's not bright polished.

I've augmented this setup with the SharpMaker from time to time as a touchup and maintenance step and it worked great. I generally stop at the gray rods though. Anything beyond that loses some "bite" and doesn't work quite as well on food or cardboard or similar materials.

The Spyderco UF stone is a wonderful and unnecessary tool. I've got one blade all polished up that I used the UF on. It's an amazingly smooth and fine edge. But it won't hold up for hardly any real use at all. Cut a few feet of cardboard or chop an onion, and that UF edge is GONE. I just have one blade that I maintain like that for fun. Not utility.

Oh, for the record: I went straight from the DMT EF to the Spyderco UF bench stone. It polished the heck out of the edge, but was not able to remove the last traces of the scratch pattern. MAN is it sharp, but it's not cosmetically perfect.

Brian.
 
The edge I get from the DMT EF is about ideal for my use.

It is good enough for push cutting but still has some bite and grab for drawcuts.

It reminds me a lot of the edge left by a Norton Fine India.
 
I tend to sharpen a lot of kitchen knives and I always use waterstones. The usual stigma of soft and fast wearing waterstones usually associated with the King brand does not translate to all waterstones. I prefer Shapton stones myself for most sharpening tasks, they are hard ceramic waterstones that wear slowly and cut very fast. Great on kitchen knives, pocket knives and everything in between.

With just the Shapton Glass 500 and 2000 I can cover a range from DMT Coarse to Spyderco Fine in just two stone and always have a complete scratch pattern without the flaws of unremoved scratches. I would also much rather use a diamond plate for 10 second to lap the stone which cleans and flattens it over scrubbing with harsh chemicals on a spyderco ceramic that never seems to be as clean as it once was. The Shaptons are also Splash-n-Go stones and require all of a shot glass of water to sharpen a single knife.

There will be a need for a diamond lapping plate to flatten and this can also double as a very coarse stone. The Atoma 400 would be ideal because it is not overly coarse and would keep from wearing the stones down too quickly. The Atoma 140 and DMT XXC take a close second but are still very good choices, just gotta use lighter pressure when lapping. The coarser 140 and 120 diamond plates would be the better choice if you needed to do some bevel repair or thinning.
 
3 dmt's come to mind the c, f and ef they should do any work short to reprofiling. the ef is a good working edge any more is just polish. all my knives are happy with the ef leaving a nice working edge. I have one the zt in elmax I go a little above fine to the Belgian blue natural stone on but it is fine grain steel to start with. also there is a stone called ultra fine that's close to the dmt's continous diamond that is a lot cheaper. I have a combo 300, 600 grit that has seen a lot of use and still cuts well. best sharpening stones carries a vast assortment of diamond plates and the dmt pastes as well.
 
Jason B. said:
I tend to sharpen a lot of kitchen knives and I always use waterstones. The usual stigma of soft and fast wearing waterstones usually associated with the King brand does not translate to all waterstones. I prefer Shapton stones myself for most sharpening tasks, they are hard ceramic waterstones that wear slowly and cut very fast. Great on kitchen knives, pocket knives and everything in between.

With just the Shapton Glass 500 and 2000 I can cover a range from DMT Coarse to Spyderco Fine in just two stone and always have a complete scratch pattern without the flaws of unremoved scratches. I would also much rather use a diamond plate for 10 second to lap the stone which cleans and flattens it over scrubbing with harsh chemicals on a spyderco ceramic that never seems to be as clean as it once was. The Shaptons are also Splash-n-Go stones and require all of a shot glass of water to sharpen a single knife.

There will be a need for a diamond lapping plate to flatten and this can also double as a very coarse stone. The Atoma 400 would be ideal because it is not overly coarse and would keep from wearing the stones down too quickly. The Atoma 140 and DMT XXC take a close second but are still very good choices, just gotta use lighter pressure when lapping. The coarser 140 and 120 diamond plates would be the better choice if you needed to do some bevel repair or thinning.
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I asked you about sharpening s110v before & you said use a DMT course followed by 1micron diamond on a strop. I took your advice & it works great, but the DMT plate I got has a few issues so I was gonna return it for a new one. Since I also need a plate to flatten my Glass Stones I was thinking to just put a little extra money & get a Atoma 400 instead of the DMT. Question I have is will the Atoma produce the same kinda edge the DMT does? Hoping to kill two birds with one stone..
 
Probably not but it's been a while since I have used the Atoma 400 and never tested that method when I did. I think the Atoma is a bit coarser than the DMT and the arangement of the diamonds makes it feel very different. The DMT Coarse is just one of those stones that stand out and work really well to sharpen. The Atoma do really well at lapping waterstones and removing steel, it's their strong points.
 
Jason B. said:
With just the Shapton Glass 500 and 2000 I can cover a range from DMT Coarse to Spyderco Fine in just two stone and always have a complete scratch pattern without the flaws of unremoved scratches.
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Jason,

I am interested in the working edge and not the polished edge.

Would you recommend the Shapton 2000 as a good place to stop for a working edge in the kitchen? Does the 2000 stand for 2000 grit? Most of the reading I'm doing leads me to a 1,200 grit, (DMT Fine, Green) being a good working edge without getting into the polishing.

Thank You.
 
I don't use my knives heavily. My 'set' is DMT Credit Card (C, F, EF) and EEF (small one) and Spyderco UF. Total budget is less than 100$ I think.

My knives are mosly sub 4" blade, so this setup works.
I shave with my knives, therefore the Spyderco UF. For working edges, stop at EF or EEF with light edge leading and strop on plain paper will be my choice. I usually revert back to these two if steel removal is needed after using.

Just realized you're looking for benchstones, so my setup doesn't apply (except that the grit progression really works). HeavyHanded makes a sharpening blocks (see his signature) that serves as a full progression and no flattening required. Check that out too.
 
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I don't normally pitch my sharpening block if folk are asking for advice on specific abrasives, but (and since Chris brought it up) it is a very strong contender when looking for a full progression system. Link through my signature below.
 
Jason,

I am interested in the working edge and not the polished edge.

Would you recommend the Shapton 2000 as a good place to stop for a working edge in the kitchen? Does the 2000 stand for 2000 grit? Most of the reading I'm doing leads me to a 1,200 grit, (DMT Fine, Green) being a good working edge without getting into the polishing.


Thank You.
Click to expand...


Different grit ratings, abrasives, binders, etc. It makes it nearly impossible to convey the small but important differences that make stones unique.

The 9 micron DMT and the 7 micron Shapton stone will yield an edge in the same range of sharpness but the waterstone polishes better so the surface appearance of the bevel would be better than the DMT EEF 8000. The edge of the 2000 grit 7 micron Shapton stone is a nice blend of toothy and polished with less burring thanks to the "softer" nature of the waterstone sharpening.

Unless you have S90V, 10V, or some other super wear resistant steel I would say the Diamond stones yield an edge a bit too aggressive on a kitchen knife. It's not the strongpoint of the product. Waterstones on the other hand were made for sharpening kitchen knives and pretty much anything else.

Shapton Glass stones remind me a bit of the Spyderco ceramics, very hard and smooth stones but unlike the Spyderco stones the SG release abrasive allowing for extremely fast metal removal. The ceramic abrasive in the SG stones also allows you to sharpen high alloy steels with ease. I've used pretty much every sharpening stone available and have everything mentioned in this thread, I chose the Shapton stones because they are versitle, fast, easy to use, and simply sharpen better than most everything else I have used. As a Professional I sharpen a lot of cutting tools in all shapes and forms, I need something that works well on everything and I get that with the SG.
 
Jason B. said:
Probably not but it's been a while since I have used the Atoma 400 and never tested that method when I did. I think the Atoma is a bit coarser than the DMT and the arangement of the diamonds makes it feel very different. The DMT Coarse is just one of those stones that stand out and work really well to sharpen. The Atoma do really well at lapping waterstones and removing steel, it's their strong points.
Click to expand...

So it looks like I'll need both then, maybe I'll get lucky and find a decent sale this week & get a deal on the Atoma. Thanks for always taking the time to answer my questions, the advice has been very helpful.
 
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