Do I need pins?

[schmittie]

Howdy folks! As a beginner, I'm sometimes confused by the surplus of information and methods out there so I thought I'd put this question to you all. I'm about to work on handles for a few knives. One is a hidden tang, the other full tang. I've aquired some curly maple recently and I'm looking forward to using it. Some almost always use pins or bolsters of some sort in their handles, others feel epoxy is enough. What do you think? Would wooden rods or steel pins be better? Or is it just cosmetic?

I appreciate your experience and opinions!

 

[galadduin]

Pins are good, but if constructed well some knives can function w/o pins... Depends on knife type and handle construction...

 

[The_cutting_edge]

I wouldnt trust just epoxy. steel, brass, nickle ect is the norm but I've also seen folks use wood and even micarta pins. the pins will protect the scales from coming off when exposed to a shearing force. if you want it to look like no pins do hidden pins.

 

[Rick Marchand]

I have always believed that a mechanical bond (pins, dovetail, dowels, etc) should be used in conjunction with a chemical bond (glue, epoxy)

I would go with pins only if I had to.... but never epoxy by itself... there is no shear strength with epoxy.

Rick

 

[Nebulae]

if you have absolutely no access to pin material you can use thick copper wire, or even a nail if you cut of tip and head

 

[Phillip Dobson]

When I replace epoxy-and-pin handles, I first drill out the pins. All it takes then to remove the scales, is a tap with a wood mallet. The pins (or dovetailed bolsters, or something) are vital for a strong attachment of handle slabs.

 

[LRB]

When I do scales, my blade tang is perforated with holes like Swiss cheese. The epoxy fills these, and you will not just tap the scales with a hammer to remove them. The last time I tried to remove a set, I ended up having to burn them off.

 

[LX_Emergency]

When I do scales, my blade tang is perforated with holes like Swiss cheese. The epoxy fills these, and you will not just tap the scales with a hammer to remove them. The last time I tried to remove a set, I ended up having to burn them off.

Same here.

 

[AcridSaint]

I guess it depends on the knife, intent and the time frame, but I'm inclined to say that you will need a mechanical fastener in most cases and always when you use scales.

 

[Rick Marchand]

I'm trying to find it... but I once read some data that gave "bond life" for various epoxy brands. Some they ranged from 5yr to 100yr. It also gave shelf life numbers. I'll keep searching. I just remember that I switched to West Systems slow cure epoxy after reading it. Most of that 5 minute stuff sucked for bond life.

Surface preparation is 90% of achieving a proper bond.


Rick

 

[jawilder]

I made a hidden tang knife using only epoxy and found that the wood separated from the brass guard about 1/32". I think it was from creating too much heat by sanding when the epoxy wasn't fully hard. I broke it off (a tough task) and rehandled it and put a pin in it as well as epoxy. It's a tank now.

 

[Peter Milner]

Not to hijack this thread, but... I use pins, but to date I have not been peening them. Do you feel peening is necessary? I make kitchen knives so they are working knives.

Thanks

 

[AcridSaint]

If the pins aren't peened or swelled somehow, they are not providing any mechanical fastening and only providing protection against shearing force. No "right" way to do it I suppose, but I want a certain amount of mechanical attachment. If I can't make it happen due to material fragility, then I go to screws. If one is really careful, just about any material can have the pins swelled in it.

 

[Bill DeShivs]

Pins should only be peened on their heads. Attempting to swell the shaft will result in broken scales and bent pins.

 

[Phillip Dobson]

When I do scales, my blade tang is perforated with holes like Swiss cheese. The epoxy fills these, and you will not just tap the scales with a hammer to remove them. The last time I tried to remove a set, I ended up having to burn them off.

I've worked with one of these "swiss-cheese" tangs. They are a bit more stubborn. To remove scales fro this type of knife, I baton a disposable utility blade between the scale and the tang. The wedging force of the thin blade works amazingly well. It only works when the pins are removed, though. Even if the pins aren't peened, you would need force pulling exactly outward on the scale to remove it with the pins still intact.

 

[LRB]

Tried that too. Didn't work. Pins were not peened and were removed first with a hammer and punch. According to "glue wars", they should have fallen off, as I used Devcon 2 TON, and they were a few years old.

 

[okzj]

I pin every full tang knife, but have never pinned a hidden tang. I cut serrations (more like forward facing teeth) into the tang and bellhole the tang slot in the handle. It's not impossible to remove, but only if you heat it to 350-400 deg first.

 

[AcridSaint]

While I do not disagree that peening heads it perfectly acceptable, I do disagree that pins can never be swelled. If you're taking apart folders or peening a pivot it sure makes sense, but there's no reason to no swell a pin in a bolster on a fixed blade or in certain instances with handle scales. It's all quite situational in my opinion.

 

[RogerP]

Could someone explain how, for a hidden tang knife (i.e., not "scales") in anything approaching normal or even extreme use, force could be applied in such a way that would be sufficient to overcome a modern slow-set epoxy, but would be insufficient to overcome a 1/16th" pin?

I have been told repeatedly that a pin is better than epoxy alone, and I have used a pin in all but one of the knives I have made, but I have a hard time seeing how that pin could resist a force that would overcome the epoxy and I have an even harder time imagining what that force might be.

Roger

 

[AcridSaint]

I only use hidden pins in hidden tang knives and also believe that they are sufficient. However, I can see that it's possible that over time the blade could become loose in the handle due to flex and slow degradation of the epoxy. The pin in that case would help keep torsion down and also ensure that the blade was held tight to the scale in the event that the epoxy did break down.

I pulled one apart after two years with the boiling method and I can say that I am very confident in them, however I don't have any data on what might happen under regular use for 20 years. It is my belief that the epoxy will hold up in this configuration, but I don't completely discount the possibility of it breaking down over time.

Scales are another story.