Do I (we) expect too much from our beloved production Slipjoints? Or not enough?

[FLymon]

I know I have been sorely disappointed, more than once, by the general condition of a new production slipjoint from the biggest names in USA slipjoint production. That, and a recent thread (and a few responses it generated) have got me wondering something.

Is there anything else I (you) buy on a regular basis that delivers such an unpredictable level of quality? So far I am coming up blank, how about you? I will definitely keep buying them because I am a knife nut, and can't make my own, but that's just me.

Maybe some of you guys and gals have other passions that have you collecting/using current new production products that are just as likely to be as poorly put together as some of the knives we have all been exposed to, and I am just wondering what those things might be?

So here is the basic idea:
I am NOT looking to start a discussion about particular knives and their particular flaws, just generally speaking do you think we should expect more? less? or is all about right with the slipjoint knives you have recently bought new? And can you sight another unrelated product as an example of why you feel that way?

 

[Railsplitter]

I buy cigars on a regular basis. Some are internet purchases and some are bought at local smoke shops. I find that the quality is very inconsistant even among the same brands and styles. The biggest problem I encounter is that they are often rolled too tight. It's very dissapointing to pay 8-15 dollars for a single cigar and have to struggle to take a draw from it.

In most cases, I am happy with the quality of new knives that I buy. If the quality of my cigars was at least as consistant as the quality of knives I buy, I would be much happier.

 

[FLymon]

That's exactly the kind of response I was looking for Rick.
I gave up on Cigars when the price of a Hemingway Short Story went north of $5 (if that tells you anything) so that is a perfect example of something I would not be familiar with today.

 

[pinnah]

I know I have been sorely disappointed, more than once, by the general condition of a new production slipjoint from the biggest names in USA slipjoint production. That, and a recent thread (and a few responses it generated) have got me wondering something.

Is there anything else I (you) buy on a regular basis that delivers such an unpredictable level of quality? So far I am coming up blank, how about you? I will definitely keep buying them because I am a knife nut, and can't make my own, but that's just me.

I'm a collector of 70s & early 80s vintage lightweight bikes as well as a former bike mechanic (and have turned into something of the mechanic on call for my local church). This issue of fit and finish is something that we've seen in the bike components for many decades and one that we continue to see. The parallels between bike components and pocket knives are very close, with a few notable exceptions.

The big similarity that I see is that there is a significant disconnect between functionality and fit-n-finish. Here's a picture to motivate the discussion.

The knife (whose blade has been buffed since that picture was taken) is an Ulster camper. I think its from the 70s maybe early 80s. Probably didn't sell for much. Nobody is going to confuse it with a GEC, that's for dang sure. Still works great though.

In the upper right hand of the picture, you'll see a set of cone wrenches. They're used to service the bearings on bike wheel hubs. Now, if you go to buy, say, Shimano brake hubs, you can buy a basic set of Tiagra (the name of the line) hubs for about $30, a set of 105 hubs for about $50, Ultergra for $80 and DuraAce (their top line) for about $200.

Performance difference in terms of efficiency and durability? Negligible.

Difference in terms of fit and finish (the bling factor)? Massive.

This is one example of a gazzillion from the bike industry where there can be a huge difference in finish and bling with really small or non-existent differences in performance.

Wobbly blades are wobbly blades and, imo, always bad. But things like over spun rivets and gaps and cracks in scales... I don't think those matter in terms of performance. My Ulster Camper won't win a single beauty contest but it's an *INSANELY* good slicer. Makes me giggle like a school girl when I use it. People I loan it to (that I trust) are rightfully respectful of the darn thing. It's a good knife.

Persig said that quality is that which produces peace of mind. Shimano learned a long time ago that different people get peace of mind of differently. For some, the object should look as nice as possible and that is in no way a slur. IMO, things can be beautiful and loving things that are beautiful and beautifully made is a fine thing. Others will focus more on function. I'm more in that latter camp. The bikes I like are very much like the Bucks, Opinels, Schrades and Ulster knives that I love. They are production bikes sold at rather low price points and they perform every bit as well as bikes that sold for 10 times as much.

 

[Morrow]

I'm passionate about knives so my reaction to a poor example from a reputable company is often...passionate.

 

[Samael]

I've never had a "surprise" from a knife I've paid upwards of about $150 or so for. Under that, well, you pays your money, you takes your chances. Such is life.

 

[mnblade]

I don't think there's a slipjoint made that won't look BETTER after a few years of regular carry and use. I'm just not that into wiping down mint safe queens over and over with a rag. So I guess you could say I feel a lot of us do ask for too much perfection out of the box.

-- Mark

 

[quattromori]

Although I love knives, I can't say I bought many of them over the years, and I assume I'm not going to buy many in the future, so my experience is limited.
Most knives I bought were production folders. Maybe I'm not that picky, or maybe I've just been lucky, but I can't say I have been disappointed with quality, even though, of course, I liked some knives more than others.
To make a comparison, I found out that tech products often give bad surprises in terms of quality. Cellphones, for example, are widely unpredictable.
Knives (in my experience) have not been a shot in the dark.

Fausto

 

[kamagong]

I like 1911s. Like slipjoints, they require a lot of hand fitting from skilled workers to realize their full potential. Which is understandable given that both slipjoints and 1911s were designed during a time when labor was inexpensive.

Another thing they have in common is that slipjoints, like 1911s, are made by a multitude of makers and are available at different price points. There are inexpensive imports that you can get for ~ $500. And then there are some the sell for north of $5k. Those 1911s are works of art, made by master gunsmiths. A 1911 made by Paul Liebenberg is a treasure you can proudly pass down to your kids, analogous to a Tony Bose cattleman.

But I'm going off on a tangent here since this thread concerns production, not custom items. For the non-enthusiast, it is stupid to spend more than $500 on a 1911. Why do it? The Rock Island Tactical looks just like the Liebenberg Combat Special. Looks can be deceiving however, and as they say the devil is in the details. Cheaper 1911s suffer from a number of production shortcuts. They use lesser-quality materials in their construction (i.e., cast compared to forged frames). The parts are often out-of-spec and sloppily fit since proper fitment requires skilled labor and expensive QC. Sharp edges often abound on these pistols as dehorning and blending cost time and money. And perhaps most obvious, the triggers on these cheaper guns just don't compare to the ones on the more refined models. Shooting a 1911 with a properly tuned trigger is effortless, while shooting a gun with a heavy, gritty trigger is a PITA.

Does anyone need all these refinements? Of course not, and there are plenty of people out there who are quite happy with the inexpensive guns. But those who shoot their guns a lot appreciate them. They don't want a gun with a trigger that they have to fight. They like a gun that doesn't cut up their hands during firearm manipulations. They want better, more durable parts. And they want the parts of their gun to be in-spec since everything breaks eventually and needs to be replaced.

I think that these refinements are things that anyone can appreciate. But they are expensive to do which is why companies often skip them. It is unreasonable for consumers to expect companies to provide them at a low price and remain profitable. For both 1911s and slipjoints, quality specimens are readily available. But you have to be willing to pay for them, and I'm not talking about early 20th-century prices.

- Christian

 

[Rick]

I feel basically the same as Flymon about the variable quality of factory slipjoints these days. With the exception of one excellent (and relatively new) domestic company, I usually won't buy new traditional knives without handling them first.

Playing and listening to music are my most passionate hobbies, and analog vinyl records are my music format of choice. I see (or rather, hear) a definite parallel between modern traditional knives and modern traditional LP records: with a few exceptions, both generally ain't what they used to be. Like slipjoint knife manufacturing, I don't know if the problem with modern LPs is a lack of skilled labor or short cutting quality control to increase profits - probably a little of both.

I buy lots of cherry-picked used vinyl in great condition, and after a good wet-cleaning, it usually sounds much better (and quieter) than the three-times-more-expensive new records being pressed today. (Yep - the format is still thriving. CDs are usually inferior sounding, and digital downloads make my ears puke.)

I'd say that roughly one-in-five expensive (usually digitally-mastered) specialty LPs have to be returned due to warps, scratches or excessive surface noise right out of the sleeve, whereas the vast majority of records I purchased when vinyl ruled the earth were consistantly clean, flat and quiet, and they still sound great to this day. Pressing good sounding vinyl with consistent quality seems to be a dying art, though the occasional gem still shows up.

 

[Robert.B]

As a machinist we have to be consistent, we have to double check our work and then be checked by another worker, maybe even a final inspection before its put into stock and definitely before we box it and send it. If a machinist sends out a part thats 0.002" oversize when our tolerance is specific it will not be fit for the person who ordered it. When you are a production company, possibly with over 50 - 100+ years vintage people are going to expect something from you and even more so when it comes from the collector or "knife knut" end of the spectrum. Sure, a $50 knife is not going to be a $1500 custom (to be vague as requested)...but don't let a knife through final QC if the bone or handle material isn't sitting flush against the liners/bolsters, don't let it through if there are obvious gaps between the liners and back spring, take a few seconds more to grind the edge properly and employ QC staff who take a little pride in what they are accepting and do a good job.

I know for a fact that when you are tooled up, maintain your tools and employ good workers it is NOT rocket science to put good quality product out the door...but it happens.

 

[CARRERA50]

Having sold parts for high-line German cars for damn near 40 years, I can tell you even the BIG suppliers {Bosch, Febi, Hella, etc.} have QC issues from time to time but they
are rare, especially in recent years. The replacement parts from China and Mexico are pure crap and should be avoided.

As far as knives are concerned, my recent experiences with Case and GEC are at least as good as I've had with Benchmade, Emerson and Al Mar. The GEC examples
are as close to perfect as anyone could reasonably expect from a production knife. The only real disappointment I've had with slipjoints was a Queen stockman
that was duller than a politician's speech, but it sharpened up easily enough.

 

[jackknife]

I think that we, the 1% knife knuts of the world do expect too much from a pocket knife. But then, we're the vast and tiny minority.

Judging by the great numbers of sak's, and 'lower' cost knives from asia, most people just want a cutting tool that is servisable. To most people, a pocket knife is like a screw driver or ball point pen; they need one, but don't care if it's cheap. Bic pens and 1.99 screwdrivers are what most people use. But some of us are more demanding that that, so we have Cross pens and GEC pocket knives.

But...

Even with lower cost items, given todays machines and technology, there should be no excuse for badly fitted parts with obvious flaws. Being a retired machinist, I have to agree with Robert, that if we take care of our tools and have motivated workers, all should be well. The fact that knives like Victorinox, Opinel, and some others cost very little, but give very good fit and finish, speak for the issue. Victorinox spends a huge amount of money on new tooling compared to other knife companies, and it shows. Open up a sak and look down inside the blade tangs. See any sheer marks or rough spots? No, they have everything polished up and cleaned off before the parts are assembled. It's rare to find a Vic with black gunk in the joints, or ill fitting blades and springs. They turn out more knives than any other two knife companies, yet are darn near perfect.

Yes, I know the argument that they have limited frame sizes. But count how many different blades/tools they make. These parts are blanked, shaped, polished, all before they go to a model knife on the assembly line. They can do so because they have the lastest high speed CNC machining centers in the industry. The spend money on their own equiptment on a larger scale than U.S. companies. The photos I saw of the old worn out machines they carted out of Schrade and Camillus were a shameful sight. Junk. And it had been junk for years, but the suits in the board room didn't want to spend money that would cut into their bonus. I see pocket knives coming out of Japan that put our domestic stuff to shame. And the Chinese will catch up some day, just as the Japanese did in the 60's.

I expect U.S. made knives to be as good as any knives from someplace else. If the Swiss and Japanese can do it, neither one a third world nation, then I expect our knives to be as good.

So yes, I expect a lot from a product, no matter where it's made. I probably expect too much, but I've had perfection, so i know it's possible.

Carl.

 

[williamsld8]

jackknife, or Carl, I was on the fence on this topic. I second guessed myself, thinking "You know, I never thought about it, but maybe I DO want too much out of a tool that is made for cutting and nothing else." But after I read your post ^^^^^, I have to say I think you helped me hop off the fence. I don't have any examples of anything else really, aside from job experience; seeing my own work and work ethic alongside those of my co-workers, but I agree. Which costs more money and more time? Short cutting and putting out a sub-par quality product when you COULD put out a quality one? Or saving a few minutes, skipping a few checks, and putting out a product that you will have to deal with warranty and customer service issued, replace or re-finish for an unsatisfied customer? If they do it right the first time, (and by right I mean make straight edges straight, make round parts smooth and round, make to parts that meet actually meet, etc.) then they don't have to worry about it afterwards. They can put that product out knowing someone will be satisfied with it, not returning it, not wanting a replacement or refund, and continuing to be a customer. This also leads to recommendations to others about the brand in question. They don't want to lose profits or bonuses by spending time/funds on quality, but doing it in the first place would give them more funds and success with which to grow.

 

[yablanowitz]

I don't think I expect too much, but I also seem to be a lot more tolerant of imperfection than a lot of folks around here. I've made a few knives over the years, and they were all UGly (yes, that is ugly with a capital ug). I know how many hours it took me to produce those pieces of crap, and even at minimum wage the labor amounts to more than a Case stockman sells for. I figure that if I can't do a better job myself, I have no right to complain. Yes, I bitch about bad edges. I can sharpen a knife, and in most cases I can improve on a factory edge, so I feel justified if the guy doing it for a living does an exceptionally bad job.

I confess that 90% of the time, my first thought when I read what someone is unhappy with or see pictures of the defects they are incensed about is simply "I'd like to see you do better for what you paid for that thing."

 

[knarfeng]

I dunno. I think about the slipjoints I used growing up in the 1960s. They were run of the mill production knives. No bone handles. Just Delrin. I don't think I had a single one that didn't have some blade play. fit and finish was variable. I didn't give it much thought and it certainly didn't bother me. I was a user, not a collector, and it didn't affect the use.

I guess what I am trying to say is that, for production knives, the standard seems to be a bit higher today than it was then.

Y'all are looking for something else that has as much variability. I think that you are making an unfair comparison. The level of precision necessary to make all the different parts of a traditional knife come out exactly right is a lot higher than it is for most other items. There's a lot more to go wrong and the materials are a lot harder to work with. Hardened steel. Natural bone. Not an easy combination to work with.

 

[longbeachguy]

I tend to be indignant if a Case or Queen has poor workmanship, because much cheaper SAK's and Chinese made slippies like Bonsai and Rough Rider seem to be very consistently good, in terms of fit and finish. However it seems to me that in the last few years the QC issues of Case and Queen have been a rarity. I think there was a rough patch about ten years ago with Case in particular but lately the quality has seemed very good.

I don't think it's too much to ask for consistent high quality in a $50 knife. In fact I don't think anything less should be tolerated in an American made product that costs more than comparable imports.

 

[FLymon]

Pinnah,

Are you saying that the fit and finish level on the $30 Shimano brake hubs is different from one to the next? Or just very different from the more expensive ones?

Christian,

I had a Colt 1911 Mark IV 70 series. There was nothing remarkable in it (that I could see) from others like it. I only had that one, do they differ much from one to the next in the same grade?


Carl,

You (and Rick with the records) touched on what I am getting at. I like the pen analogy and think it works good to illustrate my point. If you were to order a Cross pen online would you be more or less surprised to find an obvious cosmetic, or functional flaw in that pen than if you were to order say a Case or Queen pocket knife?

Maybe I have horrible luck when it comes to knives, but I would be far more surprised if there was a flaw in the pen. I half expect them in the slipjoints I buy.


So far I have learned that audiophiles who prefer vinyl, and cigar aficionados face similar challenges to us knife nuts.

Anyone else?

 

[longbeachguy]

Does anyone else think that to the extent that there are problems with some of the supposedly higher end American production slip joints, it has to do with the fact that they are made with the collector market in mind, rather than the nitty gritty user market? Some of the most common QC problems I've experience over the years have been with Queens Schatt & Morgan line, which of course it supposed to be the top of the line. I think maybe they get caught up in making them shiny and pretty and put less focus on things like blade play, spring tension etc.

 

[Samael]

I think you're right on the money with S&M. Most of the higher-end production knives I have are from companies like Cattaraugus and Boker, and I have no complaints.