Do I (we) expect too much from our beloved production Slipjoints? Or not enough?

[FLymon]

Does anyone else think that to the extent that there are problems with some of the supposedly higher end American production slip joints, it has to do with the fact that they are made with the collector market in mind, rather than the nitty gritty user market? Some of the most common QC problems I've experience over the years have been with Queens Schatt & Morgan line, which of course it supposed to be the top of the line. I think maybe they get caught up in making them shiny and pretty and put less focus on things like blade play, spring tension etc.

My pocket knives are as much or more "man jewelery" than tool. I am definitely not in the "nitty gritty user" category. My personal experience is that the biggest variant from knife to knife is cosmetic. Gaps, cracks in the scale, seriously off-center blades, even dull blades (which I equate somewhat to a new watch not having the correct time when I first take it out of the box) are all things that usually have no real effect on the knifes intended function, but are the things in my mind that should almost never be present a "premium" knife.

 

[BeTheToad]

I'm not a collector, so, I don't get too bent out of shape with most issues. I love Case knives and buy one here or there. I recently bought a Backpocket that had some marks on one of the bolsters and the blade isn't perfectly centered, but so what, I bought it to carry and it doesn't bother me.

Guns on the other hand irritate the snot out of me when they don't work., especially if it's a gun I might carry. If I spend $400+ on a gun (which I do realize isn't a bunch for a gun) then I am much more likely to be irritated because of the larger cash outlay. A knife will still cut if the blade isn't perfectly centered, but a gun that jams may cost me my life when it doesn't work.

 

[williamsld8]

Along the lines of "I'd like to see you do it better for what you paid for it", look at a truck. If you buy a brand new Ford F-150, and the door hinges are all out of whack, and you have to lift your doors when you open and close them, that's a problem. Functionality is not affected. It gets the same gas mileage, it drives down the road just the same. It's intended function performs as intended. But I will bet dollars that if you spend $30,000 on a truck whose doors are all jacked up, yet see the same truck made perfectly just due to inconsistent QC, you would be just as upset. So if I buy a $56 dollar stockman made in America with gaps and cracks in the scales and off centered blades, with a dull edge out of the box, and see the same stockman bought by someone else that comes pristine out of the box in every way, obviously the problem would be inconsistency. Obviously automobile doors are able to be properly mounted and operated, so why shouldn't they be expected to be for the same price as the next? A knife maker has the ability to manufacture a tightly spec'd work of art, so why shouldn't they be expected to produce these results for that same price each time?

 

[kamagong]

Stu,

For simple utility, a Colt Series 70 is hard to beat. Colt is the original and many gunsmiths still prefer their products for custom builds. But even Colts have their flaws. The company has been owned by various corporate entities during its history. As a result, their products and QC have been a bit uneven over the years. Still, they make a good, solid weapon at a price that most people are willing to pay.

My favorite 1911 is a Springfield Custom Carry that my wife bought for me when we got engaged. It cost a bit more than a Colt Series 70, but I chose this specific gun because I wanted a quality gun built the way John Browning designed it. One built with forged components by skilled craftsmen. Here are some pics that I hope will illustrate its quality.

Excellent fit between the beavertail and the frame

Blended frame, slide, ejector, and extractor

Blended front sight

These first three pictures show the work that was done in fitting and blending the various parts. This is more than is necessary for pure function, but it is a good indicator of quality.

Polished feed ramp

A polished feed ramp is necessary to ensure reliable feeding of ammunition. Most manufacturers polish the feed ramp, at least nominally. However, the higher the polish the better.

Polished frame rails

No tool marks here

Polished rails, devoid of tool marks, contribute to smooth cycling. Again, they are not strictly necessary, but they improve function and feel. It does require extra steps though, adding to cost of manufacture. Most consumers don't want to pay the increased price.

In the interest of full disclosure, I'm no 1911 expert. There is much more to what makes a quality 1911 than the things I've shown here. These are just the most obvious things that illustrate attention to detail.

- Christian

 

[Toyz]

I made the mistake of getting back into traditional slip joints by purchasing a custom made trapper. I then went to the B&M store a few weeks ago to look at some production slip joints and I found myself comparing everything to my custom. I ended up leaving with nothing, as every one I held had some issue or issues. Rubbing blades, handle material that had gaps, weak springs, bad fit and finish, no "walk and talk". I handled about a dozen slip joints from 3 makers.

So - I guess I do expect more from production slip joints, but thats because my custom set the bar high.

I know, I know - I can't expect the same from a $50 knife that I get with one that costs many times that. But it's hard to accept less when you know what quality can be achieved in a knife.

I'll keep looking at the production slippies for the one or two that was made on a Wednesday and is decent. I may just have to limit my collection to a few custom slip joints rather than many production ones.

I want my kids and grandkids to have something to remember me by when I'm gone - I feel much better about leaving behind a few well used custom slip joints than a box full of production ones that may or may not perform well after a few years due to F&F issues.

 

[Bigfattyt]

I don't think you are expecting too much from production slip joints (or any other production knives).

It is not like real quality, or consistency cannot be achieved.

I won't mention the brand, but a while ago I bought two locking folders. Fit and finish was excellent. Shiny, tight, no gaps in the handle material. Just one problem, the locking design was defective. I don't mean my particular one was. Come to find out, they were all produced with a glaring design flaw, but you had to use the knife for some time before it reared it's ugly head. Sent the knife back, and got a brand new one, on only to discover the exact same design flaw. Pretty ticket about it, to say the least.

For the price, I could have bought any number of real quality production knives without the flaw. I have other's from the same company, with that design flaw completely fixed! It is a very simple thing to fix.

Weak springs, bad fit and finish, poor edges (uneven, dull etc) would be expected in a 10 or 20 dollar knife. I do not expect it in a 100+ dollar knife.

A perfect example of how it can be done is looking at many import knives. China, Taiwan, etc can produce an in expensive folder with great fit and finish (look at AG Russel's drool inducing slip joints and locking folders from Chinese manufacturers if you don't believe me). They look great, and at a very great price point (cheap labor etc helps here).

It is very doable. I don't mind paying more for a knife with the same level of fit and finish made in the USA. I can, and will do so (as will many other buyers).

What I won't do, and don't accept is paying double or more, and receiving a knife with huge gaps in the scales, poor fit and finish, for that much higher price point. Not when I can pick up a Chinese knife with a much better fit and finish for 1/2 the price.

I will pay 150 for the American knife, when I could get a much cheaper, and just as visually appealing knife from a Chinese maker.

Just something about seeing that tang stamp. Especially when you hand one to some one to use, and they say "they sure don't make them like this any more". Then you can reply, "they sure do!"


Don't get me wrong, I am not a "built in the USA or it's crap" kind of guy. I don't think that about cars, or motorcycles, or bikes, or any other number of products (having owned, used, or even driven some real garbage built right here in the good old USA"


I just ordered a handfull of US made slip joints. If any are poor quality from a fit and finish category, I will send them back until I am satisfied.


On a side note, I am probably done buying products from the company that sold me a defective folder.............. It is not the fact that they produced a knife that had a design flaw. It is the fact that they did not make it right, and continued to sell all those folders with that same design flaw...........to unsuspecting buyers.

Just a minute tweak of the design completely solves the problem, but they were unwilling to do so on their stock of knives that had it. Just replacing one small part and bingo, great looking knife with an equally great working lock!

 

[george65]

they just don't make em like they used to.

 

[spydutch]

Then go figure.....

When I order a Yellow Delrin Peanut in CV from Case for example, that $ 25 you US guys pay for it soon turns in 40 or 50 bucks when I finally have it here.:grumpy:

For that money and from that company I expect at least a knife that's play free and with reasonable centered blades. I can live with some hair line gaps or uneven scales/edges, but I don't want to pay that money for a knife that I have to tweak with before it functions like it should.:barf:

 

[A. G. Russell]

I like 1911s. Like slipjoints, they require a lot of hand fitting from skilled workers to realize their full potential. Which is understandable given that both slipjoints and 1911s were designed during a time when labor was inexpensive.

Another thing they have in common is that slipjoints, like 1911s, are made by a multitude of makers and are available at different price points. There are inexpensive imports that you can get for ~ $500. And then there are some the sell for north of $5k. Those 1911s are works of art, made by master gunsmiths. A 1911 made by Paul Liebenberg is a treasure you can proudly pass down to your kids, analogous to a Tony Bose cattleman.

But I'm going off on a tangent here since this thread concerns production, not custom items. For the non-enthusiast, it is stupid to spend more than $500 on a 1911. Why do it? The Rock Island Tactical looks just like the Liebenberg Combat Special. Looks can be deceiving however, and as they say the devil is in the details. Cheaper 1911s suffer from a number of production shortcuts. They use lesser-quality materials in their construction (i.e., cast compared to forged frames). The parts are often out-of-spec and sloppily fit since proper fitment requires skilled labor and expensive QC. Sharp edges often abound on these pistols as dehorning and blending cost time and money. And perhaps most obvious, the triggers on these cheaper guns just don't compare to the ones on the more refined models. Shooting a 1911 with a properly tuned trigger is effortless, while shooting a gun with a heavy, gritty trigger is a PITA.

Does anyone need all these refinements? Of course not, and there are plenty of people out there who are quite happy with the inexpensive guns. But those who shoot their guns a lot appreciate them. They don't want a gun with a trigger that they have to fight. They like a gun that doesn't cut up their hands during firearm manipulations. They want better, more durable parts. And they want the parts of their gun to be in-spec since everything breaks eventually and needs to be replaced.

I think that these refinements are things that anyone can appreciate. But they are expensive to do which is why companies often skip them. It is unreasonable for consumers to expect companies to provide them at a low price and remain profitable. For both 1911s and slipjoints, quality specimens are readily available. But you have to be willing to pay for them, and I'm not talking about early 20th-century prices.

- Christian

Well said, Christian

A. G.

 

[Robert.B]

Then go figure.....

When I order a Yellow Delrin Peanut in CV from Case for example, that $ 25 you US guys pay for it soon turns in 40 or 50 bucks when I finally have it here.:grumpy:

For that money and from that company I expect at least a knife that's play free and with reasonable centered blades. I can live with some hair line gaps or uneven scales/edges, but I don't want to pay that money for a knife that I have to tweak with before it functions like it should.:barf:

I've been apprehensive about buying a case knife sight unseen for a long time, bought my first this week from a forum member who was able to show me exactly what I was buying...sucks when we need to be so careful about buying sight unseen, its like gambling.

 

[quattromori]

Back to my other post, I thought about this a bit more, and found out that maybe my experience was a bit "biased", meaning that almost all knives I bought (not that many, as I said) had been in my hands before I paid for them...which does make the difference.
The problem is that I rarely have the chance to see and handle knives before I buy them, except for a few brands, so any other possible buy becomes a shot in the dark. I bought a couple like that, and I was lucky. But, at the same time, the fact of not handling them before buying, and the fear of what Stu points out, has stopped me many times from buying a knife online.
Thinking about it, I guess that the real problem is not really quality but consistency. Some companies have it, others don't.
To make an example, take Victorinox. I'm not discussing here the quality of their knives. But, in my experience, you can buy 100 and find them all the same in terms of level of finish and so on. That's why I would not fear to buy one "blindly": I would be confident that I know what I'm buying. From what I've seen, not many companies are as good in maintaining a quality level (whatever it might be, high or medium or low).
I'm no expert in production knifemaking of course. But I know that a good company should spend some time in QC, no matter if they will charge 5-10% more in the price. The guarantee of knowing what we are buying is something worth the extra cost. And the feeling of buying a certain knife, that others have been happy about, and then get mine with flaws, would irritate me alot.

Fausto