Do light hatchets and axes really work?

[hatchetjack]

I know I am old fashioned and have been out in the bush way too often(or at least that is what the old lady says) but I am very fond of the following..

These Knife/Hatchet combo's are very easy to pack as they are lightweight(Lightwieght is my preference,IMO.) but scary sharp because of the old carbon steel that was used. This one is an old vintage Western Brands with 1095, full tang, and a leather stacked handle on each.

I just love "Old School", especially when they are proven. Very nice!

hatchet-

 

[DaleW]

Many single bit heads are not intended for hammering, and doing so will destroy the axe. Gransfors Bruks say so in their little book you get with their axes. So, be careful what you hammer with.

Good info. All I've ever hammered with a hatchet was a tent peg. I can see where the temper and alloy of the steel would make a difference. I doubt I would be hammering nails in a wilderness situation. Other than not making a mess of the axe, it would be good to avoid getting a face full of shrapenel!

 

[Fiddleback]

Never realized that FB. Thanks for the heads up:thumbup:

This from the guy that has tought me basically everything I know about axes... You and Thomas Linton, I mean.

IIRC they show a pic of the transformation an axe may go thorough if you hammer with them in the little book. I'll try to remember to look when I get home... If I can find the book, I mean.

 

[sunnyd]

Thanks for the kind words Grandpa and hatchetjack..

 

[misanthropist]

I like light hatchets as long as they are sharp, for the weight they will generally outchop an equal weight knife in my experience, but as stated earlier a knife is more versitile over all.

Although I think everyone should try all the tools they can and see what works best for them, I would have to respectfully disagree that a knife is more versatile than an axe. I actually find a small axe to be far more versatile than a big knife. The reason I find this to be the case is that a small axe - say like my Wetterlings large hunter - has only a few inches of blade. The result is that I can carve pretty well with the axe. I did a spoon one time when I got out in the bush and realised I didn't have one with me - knocked the branch off a downed tree with my hand all the way down the handle, choked halfway out to knock out the rough shape, then choked right up to the hilt to carve the thing.

I don't like choking up on a big knife to do carving work. Too easy to cut myself, I think, and aside from that risk, the blade makes a lousy handle.

Naturally people's needs will vary so for some the big knife probably is more versatile. But I would definitely argue that it is not necessarily more versatile - and in fact that it is less.

Finally, not to pick on any one poster, but I don't like the Gerber/Fiskars axes. This is for several reasons:

1) I don't like a synthetic handle - it is inclined to blister your hands after long use. I cut down and limbed a fifty foot red cedar last year using only my LHA, all day... I had not a trace of a blister. You can get around this using gloves, of course, but it's an extra piece of equipment you are then reliant upon.

2) If the handle breaks, you are screwed. From a survival perspective, this is important, I think. You cannot re-handle this axe.

3) The bit is too flat. I don't like the way the entire edge contacts the wood at the same time - doesn't bite as well as a good, rounded edge.

Anyway, the Wetterlings is about the same price, and then requires a couple of hours of messing around, but it is a much better axe in the long run. I prefer my Wetterlings to the GB stuff, which is much more expensive (although it requires no set-up.)

 

[mrostov]

These Knife/Hatchet combo's are very easy to pack as they are lightweight(Lightwieght is my preference,IMO.) but scary sharp because of the old carbon steel that was used. This one is an old vintage Western Brands with 1095, full tang, and a leather stacked handle on each.

SunnyD, those old Westerns were not made with 1095, but 0170-6C tool steel, which is the same stuff that the Beckers are made out of and the same stuff that Cold Steel calls 'Carbon-V'. Western called it 'Chrome Vanadium'. The 1095 steel has no Vanadium in it and the 0170-6C also has more carbon in it, 1.00% vs the 0.95% of 1095.

If anyone wants a decent hatchet without paying too much, go to Home Depot and get an Estwing. It'll run you about $30. The handle and head is one forged piece of 1055 steel and it's almost indestructable.

 

[EmsRescueGuy]

Although I think everyone should try all the tools they can and see what works best for them, I would have to respectfully disagree that a knife is more versatile than an axe. I actually find a small axe to be far more versatile than a big knife. The reason I find this to be the case is that a small axe - say like my Wetterlings large hunter - has only a few inches of blade. The result is that I can carve pretty well with the axe. I did a spoon one time when I got out in the bush and realised I didn't have one with me - knocked the branch off a downed tree with my hand all the way down the handle, choked halfway out to knock out the rough shape, then choked right up to the hilt to carve the thing.

I don't like choking up on a big knife to do carving work. Too easy to cut myself, I think, and aside from that risk, the blade makes a lousy handle.

Naturally people's needs will vary so for some the big knife probably is more versatile. But I would definitely argue that it is not necessarily more versatile - and in fact that it is less.

Finally, not to pick on any one poster, but I don't like the Gerber/Fiskars axes. This is for several reasons:

1) I don't like a synthetic handle - it is inclined to blister your hands after long use. I cut down and limbed a fifty foot red cedar last year using only my LHA, all day... I had not a trace of a blister. You can get around this using gloves, of course, but it's an extra piece of equipment you are then reliant upon.

2) If the handle breaks, you are screwed. From a survival perspective, this is important, I think. You cannot re-handle this axe.

3) The bit is too flat. I don't like the way the entire edge contacts the wood at the same time - doesn't bite as well as a good, rounded edge.

Anyway, the Wetterlings is about the same price, and then requires a couple of hours of messing around, but it is a much better axe in the long run. I prefer my Wetterlings to the GB stuff, which is much more expensive (although it requires no set-up.)

The Synthetic handles on fiscars and gerbers are amazingly strong, I have broken more than one wooden handle in the feild (mostly my fault) but have never had a problem with these.

You can re handle this axe by using the same method used by our ancestors to make flint axes, Split a branch seat the head then use chord to secure it. (diddn't see that coming did ya )

I am not really familiar with GB or wetterling though both seem to have a good following and Im sure are good products.:thumbup:

As far as the versitility goes I would say it depends on the knife or hatchet and what tasks you are trying to perform. but I agree there is room for debate on this subject.

 

[sunnyd]

SunnyD, those old Westerns were not made with 1095, but 0170-6C tool steel, which is the same stuff that the Beckers are made out of and the same stuff that Cold Steel calls 'Carbon-V'. Western called it 'Chrome Vanadium'. The 1095 steel has no Vanadium in it and the 0170-6C also has more carbon in it, 1.00% vs the 0.95% of 1095.

If anyone wants a decent hatchet without paying too much, go to Home Depot and get an Estwing. It'll run you about $30. The handle and head is one forged piece of 1055 steel and it's almost indestructable.

mrostov,
Son,, on this light tackle!.. Thank you for pointing that out to me. Apparently I was misinformed many moons ago by a dear friend who I am sure was also likewise misinformed..

Could you perhaps guide me to a website where you got that information.. Thanks in advance!.

BTW, I concur with the Estwing suggestion.. There is no finer Hatchet made today in this day-&-age for the money.

 

[SkunkWerX]

SunnyD, Nice set-up. The old timers had thought all this through, many years ago, when they came up with those knife/hatchet sets.
I remember having a cheaper version as a kid.

Hollowdweller, you da man, I agee with you regarding weight, chopping ability and edge angle. Most things in the physical world can be seen in such a light, the yin and yang.

You reduce size, angle must be more acute and sharper to mitigate the loss of weight. As you also said, the user must compensate with speed/force depending on the size. I think this type of principal holds true for axes, knives , and life in general. There is always a trade-off. it doesn't mean it's bad, it's just different. We trade light weight/compactness for brute chopping ability, or vice versa.

Hammering. Sorry to the Grandfors or Wetterling crowd, but it's preposterous that you can't hammer with the flat face of a hatchet. That's what it was originally designed for! A hatchet is a hand axe/hammer combo. We are talking about hardened steel here. With the exception of Case hardended nails, a vast majority of nails are soft metal. Any hand axe/hatchet should be able to drive them all day long, for decades with no more than surface scratches. Likewise, as was mentioned, tent pegs should be no problem.
Wooden dowels, same same.
With that said, let's look at mushroomed hatchet heads for a moment.
Culprit #1: pounding other hardended steel objects is a No-No. Hatchets were not intended to pound on a splitting wedge.
Culprit #2: Using the hatchet as a splitting wedge and hammering it with a steel hammer or other hardened carbon steel. Big No-No.
By and large, that's where mushrooming comes from, basically it's from abuse. After mushrooming comes the cracking and the danger.
I would suspect that the companies named above, tell people not to use them as hammers for insurance purposes. Easier for the lawyer to simply say NO, then to delineate the cases where it is proper and Not.
One should be able to hammer 12 penny framing nails or wooden pegs virtually forever without a problem.

When pounding steel against steel, the hatchet is typically not quite as Hard and containes a little less carbon, than say a Hammer. It's that small difference that mushrooms the hatchet head, and leaves the harder hammer intact. That's been my experience, mileage may vary.


On Wooden handles: (and tools with sockets)
Tradition meets newer materials. I know the new composite handes are very tough, no argument there. But a wooden handled tool can be rehandled indefinitely. In the Wilderness, it wouldn't take a lot of effort to scrounge up some decent hardwood, shape it, harden it over the campfire, and re-handle into a socketed tool.
I understand the fiskers and gerber "Could" be rehandled, in a pinch, using the "stone age" lashing design, but they may not be quite as sturdy in the long run.
For now, I'm sticking with wooden handles. In a wilderness situation it makes sense, in a survival situation it could really be a big difference if you were to break a handle.

Good thread.

 

[perpster]

Luke Skywalker told me light sabres work better than light hatchets and axes.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Liam Ryan]

SunnyD, I love full tang small hatchets, Im working on a few right now, and i have the updated version of that western with the black rubber handle and black coating, its great, but you can't beat that old school one.
How thick is it, around 1/8?

 

[Fiddleback]

Hammering. Sorry to the Grandfors or Wetterling crowd, but it's preposterous that you can't hammer with the flat face of a hatchet. That's what it was originally designed for! A hatchet is a hand axe/hammer combo. We are talking about hardened steel here. With the exception of Case hardended nails, a vast majority of nails are soft metal. Any hand axe/hatchet should be able to drive them all day long, for decades with no more than surface scratches. Likewise, as was mentioned, tent pegs should be no problem.
Wooden dowels, same same.

You assume a lot. Not all are designed this way. The GB's are not hardened. That is what the warning is in there for. If they were all hardened you'd have a point. But they're not.

 

[misanthropist]

My Wetterlings is specifically designed to hammer with the poll. It says so on their site and in the manual. What small Wetterlings axe can't be used as a hammer?

EMS guy: I have seen axes re-handled this way (in fact I once made an axe this way frome wood and stone) but it's not a system I like very much, so I guess I forgot about it. I would be much less confident in an axe re-hung in this manner than one in which the hanlde was simply replaced with new wood. I agree the synthetic handle is strong - but I have seen broken ones.

I don't think it's a poor axe exactly, but I see it get recommended on a lot of survival forums and I don't think it's a good survival axe. Of course axes are a personal thing and if it works for a person then they should go with it, I say.

 

[SpookyPistolero]

I was once gifted one of the synthetic handled axe/knife combos, where the blade hides up in the handle. I thought it was interesting and took it out with me on a camp. The handle snapped in half at the third strike on normal wood.

As you can imagine, I'm not terribly 'into' synthetic handled tools now, where the polymer is meant to bear some weight or strength. I say this to help understand how large a leap it took for me to pick up a Fiskars hatchet.

I can't fully endorse it since I haven't even taken it on a 'heavy' trek, but it's absolutely handled all the horsing around and testing with it that I've done thus far. Today it's coming on a hike with me where it will see some much heavier action.

My only point is that any material may have faults, and any specific example may have issues. We get past these by testing all our gear before trusting it.

 

[Any Cal.]

Hi all. Just a thought. I originally bought the Back Paxe because I was worried about the plastic handle in the cold. I figured that if my hand covered the handle, I would be more careful about an overstrike or if I did, at least the handle would be protected. The thing cut well, but was incredibly tiring to use. I was out w/ a buddy who had the longer one. It had the same? head, but a handle that was a good bit longer. He had used his constantly for a long time, and it showed. The plastic to the front of the head was ground down a bit from splitting, and it showed quite a bit of wear. The thing was nice and tight though, and much more efficient than my short one. Later, I saw the picture on the net of the truck tire flexing the handle of one of the Fiskars, and it layed many of my fears to rest. Still don't know how they hold up in the very cold though. I like the machetes now, but would not feel disadvantaged if all I had was one of the gerber/fiskars.

 

[Liam Ryan]

Im sure they put a lot of research into making it pretty durable, no company wants bad press like axe heads flying into faces and such.
How is the angle geometry on those, it looked a bit to wide for my tastes.

 

[Any Cal.]

I don't know all that much about hatchets. I really liked it for the short time I used it. It was easy to keep very sharp due to the bevel. I doubt that it would cut like a gransfors, but it was much better than any plain jane dept. store hatchet I had tried. I THINK I would like the longer one more than my Craftsman wood handled one if I had to choose. Maybe A comparo if I find a good price on the Fiskars. The light plastic handle balances a lot different. Not in a bad way.

 

[SkunkWerX]

You assume a lot. Not all are designed this way. The GB's are not hardened. That is what the warning is in there for. If they were all hardened you'd have a point. But they're not.

Not hardened, at all??

Can you point me to some reference?

I find this odd.

 

[SkunkWerX]

If you want the best ax on the planet, you just have to call Gransfors Bruks, Inc. Phone: 1-xxx-xxx-xxxx they come with a hickory handle (Quote: Nothing like a good piece of hickory - Clint Eastwood) very well balanced, hand forged razor sharp (really) blade is harden to R57C, which is harder then most axes and as hard as most good knives, a excellant leather sheath is provided. It will be the last ax you ever need unless it get stuck in a mean old bad bear and he runs away with it.

???????????

 

[Fonly]

haha, I didnt see that little statment.