Do most heat treat companies use standard heat treat?

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letsurf

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Mar 11, 2013
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I'm just getting into knife making and wondering if most heat treat companies use the standard heat treat for a steel or if they use their own proprietary ht protocol that is better? Ideally a bunch of ht companies would constantly test, change, and improve their ht and I'm wondering if that is the case.

I know Carothers and a few others developed the ht for Delta 3v and they use Peters to ht the knives but it is proprietary to them so no one else can use it. Could there be another ht company out there that has developed significant improvements over standard ht like Carothers that we could have do our heat treats?
 
Are you sure that nobody else can use it? As best as I can tell, the only real difference is that the "delta" method uses the low temper. I didn't know that was a protected method.
 
jdm61 said:
Are you sure that nobody else can use it? As best as I can tell, the only real difference is that the "delta" method uses the low temper. I didn't know that was a protected method.
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I'm pretty new to heat treat but was under the assumption that there is a lot going on and that the heat treat for 3v is a pretty complex one. Isn't it sort of like a recipe with even the slightest tweak changing it pretty dramatically? Or is it as simple as using the standard heat treat protocol for 3v and just using a low temper?
 
As I remember, using the low temper eliminates the secondary hardening and, in the case of stainless steel, makes the steel more corrosion resistant. In the case of 3V, it apparently eliminates some potential fine edge brittleness. Us knife makers take steel down to pretty thin dimensions that you will not see on other tools, so the needs are different.
 
letsurf said:
I'm just getting into knife making and wondering if most heat treat companies use the standard heat treat for a steel or if they use their own proprietary ht protocol that is better? Ideally a bunch of ht companies would constantly test, change, and improve their ht and I'm wondering if that is the case.

I know Carothers and a few others developed the ht for Delta 3v and they use Peters to ht the knives but it is proprietary to them so no one else can use it. Could there be another ht company out there that has developed significant improvements over standard ht like Carothers that we could have do our heat treats?
Click to expand...

I've used The Heat Treat services of Buck Knives, (Paul Bos) whom has always been at the forward in heat treating steels. Used them for over 20 years now and always been happy.. If you have a Question, At Buck, Paul Farner is the man there..
 
You can’t really expect heat treating companies to constantly test, change and improve there heat treat. Thy are not knife makers (generally speaking). I would say besides the select few most use by the book heat treat. Now I’m sure you could request a particular schedule but you would have to provide it. Thy are not in the business of experimenting, thy are in the business to make money. This is generally why 99% of the advancements made with tweaked heat treats have come from individuals. It’s passion that drives us not the dollar. I run tweaked/tuned heat treats for all my steels within reasion.

But if your wanting a heat treat for a knife it’s best to send it to places that specialize in doing knives. If you send it to a standard heat treating factuality you might end up disappointed; depending on the steel of corse.
 
I recall Kevin Cashen saying a few years ago that with some steels, you take what the chemistry will give you. IIRC, he mentioned A2 as one of those steels. From what I have seen, people have kind of rediscovered lately that at say 60Rc, A2's chemistry gives you some pretty darn good results. But he then said that other steels can be played with. I seem to recall that he was talking about 52100 at the time as he had been messing around with the lower austenizing temps and that obviously is one steel where knife makers have discovered the benefits of deviating from the "industry standard" HT used for bearings. It sure sounds like guys like Bob Dozier also figured that out with D2. Some of these optimized heat treatment regimes actually aren't; all that complicated or time consuming. One trick that has become fairly commonplace with higher alloy steels is a quick cold/cryo treatment immediately out of the quench with no "snap" temper. That is supposedly a necessity if you plan to use the low temper in order to kill that RA. You also see stuff like Roman Landes' recommendation of water "quenching" steels coming out of a temper to avoid some possible embrittlement issues. In the case of Mr. Cashen's experiments with 52100, he found that high temp salt with a medium-fast oil quench worked better than a low temp salt quench like he uses for O1 and L6. Lots of really good info out there today to go along with the fairy tales and hokum. You just have to make sure that you can tell them apart. ;)
One other thing is that the reputable HT companies will do what you want, within reason of course. Peter's normal HT for AEB-L has been very good from my experience. If you want them to do the multi stage HT like Hoss does, they will do it. But it will cost you double because that have to run the big furnace twice.
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
I've used The Heat Treat services of Buck Knives, (Paul Bos) whom has always been at the forward in heat treating steels. Used them for over 20 years now and always been happy.. If you have a Question, At Buck, Paul Farner is the man there..
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Thanks will check them out.

JTknives said:
You can’t really expect heat treating companies to constantly test, change and improve there heat treat. Thy are not knife makers (generally speaking). I would say besides the select few most use by the book heat treat. Now I’m sure you could request a particular schedule but you would have to provide it. Thy are not in the business of experimenting, thy are in the business to make money. This is generally why 99% of the advancements made with tweaked heat treats have come from individuals. It’s passion that drives us not the dollar. I run tweaked/tuned heat treats for all my steels within reasion.

But if your wanting a heat treat for a knife it’s best to send it to places that specialize in doing knives. If you send it to a standard heat treating factuality you might end up disappointed; depending on the steel of corse.
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That makes sense. I guess I was just thinking about the places that specialize in knife heat treats. There's a big difference between a company that is just doing heat treat factory style vs someone who is constantly testing and improving.
 
Most bigger heat treaters use a cycle of; ramp, stabilize, ramp, soak, quench, cryo, temper, temper. Or they’ll do something similar using recommended temps and getting required hardness.

Adjustments are made with each specific piece of equipment based on experience and instruction from the customer.

Hoss
 
if you post your location, it might be easier. google "steel heat treat" in the nearest city and see what comes up. I am near Raleigh,NC and have 5 companies within 50 miles that can heat treat "knife steel". I don't know what price they would charge for 2 or 3 blades.
 
scott.livesey said:
if you post your location, it might be easier. google "steel heat treat" in the nearest city and see what comes up. I am near Raleigh,NC and have 5 companies within 50 miles that can heat treat "knife steel". I don't know what price they would charge for 2 or 3 blades.
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Near Knoxville TN so not too far from you.
 
Bodycote is an international company with a facility near you, they claim to be the largest heat treat company in the world. The worst they can say is they aren't interested in working with you.
 
I mailed mine to Peters delivered last Friday. Yesterday I got an email that said "receiving". This morning the email says "tempering", so I guess it's nearly done. That's about all I can ask for so I'm not too motivated to look into local options.
 
I have used Peters and Bos and will have to say I like Bos better and his price is better as well.
 
Yes, I've heard good things about Bos as well. Another good thing about using a company that does a lot of blades is that they are immediately familiar with Devin Thomas damascus and have a procedure for it.
 
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