Do People Use Bowies For Anything?

redsquid2

redsquid2

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There is an extensive collection of bowies in the Henry Ford Museum, in Michigan. I noticed they all seem to have been made in Sheffield, or somewhere in England. The Ford is all about technology, so I guess the curators consider them to be important technology.

Walking through the museum, I didn't have time to stop and read a lot of the explanatory material on these knives. Were they designed primarily as weapons?

They look long and unwieldy for game butchering. Not thin enough to be the best slicers. Not sturdy enough for splitting a lot of kindling. They don't look like digging tools, and certainly not woodcarving tools. I always imagined them, as I saw them in movies and on TV, as weapons on the wild frontier. Am I right?
 
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I used mine. A thick spine allows chopping, splitting and limbing. You can butcher with them.

Back then, a large knife was also a back up to limited shot, unreliable weapons.

It is also important to realize that the earliest Bowie's were likely just sturdy long butcher knives, and likely guardless.


A large knife can do smaller tasks in a pinch. There are a lot of tasks that a small knife can't accomplish, however.


I don't normally just take a large knife, though. I pair it up with handier smaller knives for fine/detail chores.
 
I forgot to mention that I appreciate the bowie as an art form. I don't think I would ever have the skills (the patience?) to make one, but I do appreciate the ones that are handmade, and sold here.
 
redsquid2 said:
There is an extensive collection of bowies in the Henry Ford Museum, in Michigan. I noticed they all seem to have been made in Sheffield, or somewhere in England. The Ford is all about technology, so I guess the curators consider them to be important technology.

Walking through the museum, I didn't have time to stop and read a lot of the explanatory material on these knives. Were they designed primarily as weapons?

They look long and unwieldy for game butchering. Not thin enough to be the best slicers. Not sturdy enough for splitting a lot of kindling. They don't look like digging tools, and certainly not woodcarving tools. I always imagined them, as I saw them in movies and on TV, as weapons on the wild frontier. Am I right?
Click to expand...


I thought they were invented to defend the Alamo with!

:cool:

TedP
 
My sense is that back in the 1800 US, knives of this sort were dual purpose. One part weapon. One part hunting/game cleaning tool. This quote from the Wikipedia page on Jim Bowie is in this flavor.

After a confrontation in Alexandria one afternoon, Wright fired a shot at Bowie, after which Bowie resolved to carry his hunting knife at all times.[28] The knife he carried had a blade that was 9.25 inches (23.5 cm) long and 1.5 inches (3.8 cm) wide.
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More reading here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Bowie#Bowie_knife
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rezin_Bowie#Bowie_knife
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bowie_knife
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navaja

I think understanding and to some extent embracing this dual nature of game cleaning and self-defense is essential to understand the Bowie and from there, modern Bowies like the Buck 119, military fighting knives like the Ka-bar, locking folders like the Buck 110 and modern tactical knives.

The Ka-Bar derived out of Bowie-style hunting knives made by Western among others.

The Buck 119 remains one of Buck's all time best sellers, along with the Buck 110. Read the article on the Spanish Navja (above) and hold a Buck 110 and you can understand how and why the Buck 110 become popular as a fighting knife for biker gangs among others. The story of the genesis and naming of the smaller Buck 112 Ranger is that a fight among sailors on the USS Ranger led to a number of stab wounds from Buck 110s. This led to a mandate that knife blades could not exceed 3". Buck produced the 112 with a 3" blade and named it the Ranger. Or at least, that's how I've heard the story.

As for the Sheffields on display, I wonder if the connection is the industrial production of the Sheffield Bowies that is important there? As I understood it, the Sheffield Bowies were made for export to the US primiarliy and htis was before there was an industrialized knife industry in the US. Russel (Mass, of barlow fame) was one of hte first in the US with many others following. Long and winding road from there to Post Falls, Idaho (current home of Buck).
 
redsquid2 said:
I always imagined them, as I saw them in movies and on TV, as weapons on the wild frontier.
Click to expand...

Martial applications count as a use do they not? I keep a bowie near my nightstand, along with my 1911. Technically I've never "used" either of them. Don't want to either, not if that means that I have to use them for serious purposes. But they are there, ready to go should the need arise. Seems like it is being used to me.

- Christian
 
I have a sterile EK Model 5 Combat Bowie use as an all around camp knife/yard knife. As was mentioned by another member, I also don't exclusively Carrie a bowie but as far as outdoor tasks go, it's the Swiss Army knife of large fixed blades.
 
I think that the time window of the real utility of the Bowie was pretty small. In the late 1830's to the late 1840's, it was a viable choice for a defense weapon, but the Revolver changed that by the 1850's. Popularity of the Bowie among the Union troops in the civil war, (also known by many as the war of northern aggression) was very low. Even among the southern troops who often were ill equipped, the Bowie fell out of favor by mid war. Many were just discarded as being too heavy and not really needed. The many civil war museums around here in Maryland and Virginia, gives a good glimpse into what the soldiers actually carried.

Post civil war era, with the advent of metallic cartridge firearms, and more compact handguns, the Bowie fell further out of favor by most. It became more of a male jewelry and display item, hence the many old bowies that are found in very good to almost unused condition. Most of the frontiersmen and later buffalo hunters used what amounted to large butcher knives that were far better cutters.

I once saw in a book the casualty figures for the soldiers in the civil war. Even though the firearms of the day were slow muzzle loaders, the figures for other than gunshot wounds were astoundingly low. Even bayonet wounds were not common. It would appear that very few union or southern troops relied on a bowie as a weapon. Steven Dick wrote a good article for the Ken Warner Knives Annual, about knives of the fur trade. In it he listed the knives and manufacturers of the items used. Almost none were bowies. I believe he stated it to the effect that the bowie was popular among water front thugs and saloon folk, but past the Mississippi was a working mans relm, and the plain butcher knife was the knife of choice among both trappers and homesteaders.

The Bowie's biggest fan has been Hollywood movie makers.

Carl.
 
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I used to carry a 1950s German made bowie as a boy scout. It made a statement, but was a PITA. It was heavy, not good for food preparation or woodcraft, and it got in the way when falling down an embankment, squeezing between rocks, etc. Too heavy to clear brush compared to a machete. If you've ever carried one for a day or more...you won't repeat it.

It now is my barbecue knife. I buy chunk Best Choice mesquite, hickory and cherry. I break it down with the bowie knife into smaller pieces for my weber. Best use I've ever found for it. Well not really the only use, between barbecues it sits by the front door ready to take the arm off anyone who tries to reach in past the security chain.
 
I use my 'non traditional' Ontario SP50 to process firewood and occasionally clear brush. It's attached to my pack and I do not see myself ever trying to belt carry an 8"+ blade.
 
redsquid2 said:
There is an extensive collection of bowies in the Henry Ford Museum, in Michigan. I noticed they all seem to have been made in Sheffield, or somewhere in England.
Click to expand...

So that's where they all went! :D
 
Carl,

Great, great post!

To my mind, it raises the question of "what is a Bowie knife?" I suspect it morphed into smaller Bowie style hunting knives. Here's a nice article on various camping knives in which the author discusses the Marble Ideal.
http://masterwoodsman.com/2013/classic-camping-knives/

The Ideal is the top knife pictured and I think most people would call that a "Bowie style hunting knife"
Vintage-Marbles-Knives-31-1024x950.jpg


So, if that author is right, the Ideal came out after the Civil War in 1898.

And this site has a nice collection of photos of Western knives with a focus on military use.
http://usmilitaryfightingknives.com/WESTERN_KNIVES.html

But we also know that these Westerns were sold and used as hunting/sporting knives too. Here's a beauty and I think most would call it a "Bowie"

dc08f423c6c9e4098e25744e26069b1c.jpg


After WWII, "Bowie" knives were still being sold to sportsmen, albiet continuing in their move to be shorter and sometimes thinner.

The Schrade-Walden Bowie Hunter
pearlknife046.jpg


And of course, there are others like the Schrade-Waldern H-15 and then there are the Case and Bucks and on and on...

I share your general feeling about the Bowie and it's association with thugs. It's one reason why I introduced my H-15 to my flat file and dropped the point.

H 15 drop point 2 by Pinnah, on Flickr

Spot on about the association with your Hollywood comment btw. The Buck 119 is a standard cliche in slasher movies, I'm fairly certain as a reference to Charles Manson, who reportedly used a Buck Bowie. Pretty sure this is why it's among the biggest sellers for Buck, which is a pretty sad commentary. I'm confident Buck is happy with this. Here is their Thug, a modern reincarnation of the Bowie.
BU070.jpg
 
I've been using the Ontario SP10 Marine Raider Bowie to do yardwork, chopping the undergrowth from trees. I think it's great fun and makes the work more interesting even if it takes a little longer. There's just something extremely satisfying about whacking unwanted vegetation with a nice, sturdy, sharp blade!

This fall I'll use it to baton firewood for my back yard fire pit.
 
I learned to hunt carrying a short knife and hatchet on my belt. Then I shifted to carrying a short knife and a nine or ten inch trail knife. It’s less dangerous than a hatchet, and more versatile. Chop firewood, make a shelter, break a deer—with the short knife for skinning and capping—camp kitchen work, harvest fatwood, cut a path through brambles, use as a draw knife, use as a froe.

In the nineteenth century there was more wilderness, and more use for big knives. Jim Bowie made his knife famous as a weapon. But the real inventor of the Bowie never talked about fighting with it. After Jim’s death, brother Rezin said, THE FIRST BOWIE KNIFE WAS MADE BY MYSELF IN THE PARISH OF AVOYELLES, IN THIS STATE (Louisiana), AS A HUNTING KNIFE, FOR WHICH PURPOSE, EXCLUSIVELY, IT WAS USED FOR MANY YEARS. THE LENGTH OF THE BLADE WAS NINE AND ONE-QUARTERS INCHES, ITS WIDTH ONE AND ONE-HALF INCHES, SINGLE EDGED AND NOT CURVED. REZIN P. BOWIE, PLANTERS ADVOCATE: AUGUST 24, 1838
 
A few years ago, one of the gun rags did an article on the guns that really won the west. I think the author was Gary James, maybe. Hemade a good case for the worshiped Colt .44 and the Winchester being products of Hollywood film bunk. He made the case for the humble shotgun, in that every homesteader, sheriff, and storekeeper kept one. The sheriff in case of trouble, and the homesteader because it would take a wide variety of gamefrom small to large.

I wonder if the same thing could be done with the Bowie knife? If one were to travel back in time, what would we find the average store keeper, rancher, homesteader, and freight wagon driver carry as their main knife? I know that the Russell barlow knife was a big seller after the civil war, and the English companies like Taylors Eye Witness and IXL shipped a lot of 'skinning knives' to America.

I wonder what knife tamed the west?:D

Carl.
 
Bigfattyt said:
I used mine. A thick spine allows chopping, splitting and limbing. You can butcher with them.

Back then, a large knife was also a back up to limited shot, unreliable weapons.

It is also important to realize that the earliest Bowie's were likely just sturdy long butcher knives, and likely guardless.


A large knife can do smaller tasks in a pinch. There are a lot of tasks that a small knife can't accomplish, however.


I don't normally just take a large knife, though. I pair it up with handier smaller knives for fine/detail chores.
Click to expand...

Jim Bowie was described as carrying a “big butcher knife.” The term is deceptive. In that context the phrase meant a knife used to butcher men. A killing knife. Jim’s certainly was. That might have meant a big knife from a butcher shop. It might not. Certainly the Sheffield Bowies that flooded the American market weren’t designed for cutting steaks off primals.

The same caution applies to the post-Lewis and Clark mountain men. When an Ashley’s invoice lists butcher knives, we can’t be sure what that means. There is this precedent: Americans must have known about the Hudson Bay Camp Knife. That’s a tool dedicated to the fur trade. Would the mountain men, for their personal use, have strayed from a proven pattern? The knife blades they carried as trade goods might have been quite different.
 
The bowie knife was a big general use knife initially much like the Hudson Bay knives. Essentially they were big knives used for butchering animals and would provide a close contact weapon when muzzle loading rifles and handguns were all there was (single shot). Jim Bowie's knife was his backup defensive weapon. I suspect Jackknife's post #8 is right on and especially with the thug comment. The big knife allowed for a lot more reach in a knife fight in general. Handguns were less common. Shotguns were very common a bit later.

People are basically the same now as they were in the early 1800's. I suspect more than one large knife has caused a twinkle in the eye of a knife admirer just as they do today. For utility, I think there are better designs and I also suspect you would find that folks who used knives also had a two-knife approach. If nothing else, one provided a backup to a very important tool for woodscraft, defense, and butchering game (read buffalo) which was much more commonly needed for food on the frontier which actually started on the west side of the Appalachian moutain chain and then shifted westward as areas East of the Mississippi became more settled.
 
Don't forget, a great many of the Bowie's bought were a presentation item. After James died at the Alamo, his brother, Rezin, made a career out of presenting a Bowie knife to just about anyone he had business contact with. And others did similar. Many Bowie's were never used except as show pieces on the mantle.

Carl.
 
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