Do some steels just cut better?

I prefer my EDC NOT have a polished edge. I do like to feel the edge grab when I cut. I just cannot find the happy medium. I am getting way too agressive an edge, that is too coarse. I not only feel the edge, it feels like it is "hanging up". I have changed the angle now, several time and just cannot find the "sweet spot". I either strop too much or not enough.
Is this simple trial and error? I know that there are knives with FAR BETTER edgeds than I am getting with an Apex or the Smith's that I have.
Do I keep changing the angle, use a finer grit, and does a strop get so loaded up that it is just no longer effective???:confused: :confused: I am just LOST/Frustrated...Thanks Guys....wolf
 
Try using a finer grit, and don't waste time with the strop if you're not going for a polished edge.
 
Wolf :

I not only feel the edge, it feels like it is "hanging up".
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That sounds like a burr problem to me or a part of an edge that is not getting hit because of curvature or just excessive edge damage/wear in that region. Even edges that are left very coarse, say 600 grit DMT, should be able to cleanly slice though a sheet of paper. Getting it to push cut is also possible, but demands a very high alignment. I would make sure that your hones are clean and lapped if they are not diamond or ceramic.

Strops can get too loaded up, however you should not be using them for excessive metal removal anyway. When they do get loaded you can clean them with a stiff brush. If you want a high polish then you should finish with a very fine stone before stropping. Otherwise just strop for a few passes to remove the burr, or use some higher angle passes on the finishing hone. With an aggressive buffing compound on your strop it doesn't take long to polish the edge at all so yes you can easily over do it.

However just as you noted, the more coarse the edge the more force is required to haul it through a piece of material, but it does travel further through it with each pass, so there is an advantage. You need to find a level of grit finish that gives you enough aggression, without requiring so much force that it is difficult to do fine work. Personally I find 600 grit DMT to be about the lowest I would go, but this is not useful in general as the optimal finish will depend on what you use the blade for and how.

Burke :

D-2, again no access to any blades made of D-2 so no I haven't tried
any.
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Do you want one? I can send you one after x-mas if you are interested. Sharpen it however you want, including modifing the edge profile if necessary. No need to resharpen before returning, in fact I would prefer it if you left it in the blunted condition as that would be informative.

-Cliff
 
Cliff S....
The blade stock has little or no influence on the ease of sharpening, the critical factors geometry wise are the edge angle and width, both you want minimized and are critical in influencing the cutting ability and ease of metal removal.
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Of course you are right, but as we have also discussed, it is much easier to get a good primary and secondary bevel - well suited to a good edge - if you begin with thinner stock.
The human body is capable of determining very small changes in forces, just a very percent.
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True, but I didn't say you couldn't tell which was sharper, I said you couldn't tell from what kind of steel the knife was made. The issue was about some steels not taking the kind of edge other steels can take.
 
Cliff,

I really appreciate your offer on sending a blade made out of D-2, but I would rather not take the chance of it getting lost in the mail or something. Theres already been a thread about another knife that was lost and some pretty harsh things were said, I'm in the process of trying to get known in the knife world and would hate for something to cause individuals to think poorly of me. I'll just stay with the knives that I have easy access to and let it go with that.

Again I really do appreciate the offer though.

Thanks

Bill
 
matthew rapaport :


it is much easier to get a good primary and secondary bevel - well suited to a good edge - if you begin with thinner stock.
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Yes, if the stock is thin enough you don't even need a primary bevel, just slap on an edge and off you go.


I didn't say you couldn't tell which was sharper, I said you couldn't tell from what kind of steel the knife was made.
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Since some steels will get sharper than others, if you can determine which is sharper then you can determine the steel if you know from past experience how sharp it gets under a certain level of finish.

However it is not trivial as there are other factors besides steel properties as discussed in the above. If the edges are different then the difference in sharpness will just be due to the difference in geometry.

Bill, understandable. I'm interested in what you come up with if you do more edge testing work after x-mas, I look forward to reading any information that you post.

-Cliff
 
Wolf--Cliff may be right that you have a mixture of sharp and not-so-sharp spots on the edge, but maybe you are just feeling blade surface drag. If you don't polish your blade near the edge you will get higher friction as you slice through most materials. What I often do is hone using progressively finer abrasives then strop to achieve a polished edge and a polished blade. Then I go back and lightly hone just the edge using a coarser hone. Sometimes 600 grit diamond and sometimes a fine ceramic rod. The blade is shiney smooth except for the tip of the edge. It glides through material easily.

Mathew--If I manually sharpen a blade I can usually categorize it by feel. I might not be able to differentiate AUS-8 from 12C27, but they are easy to distinguish from 440A. As a typical example I've got two Camilus EDC's, one with 154CM blade and one with a D2 blade. I got a rounded diamond hone just to work on the recurved blades. I can get them both to shave, but the D2 feels and slices very differently. I love the feel of a D2 edge. It is distinctly different from the slick razor edge that I get on VG10 and reminds me of the feel of a file-sharpened machete. It always amazes me that I can shave with D2 given the feel of the edge.
 
Mathew--If I manually sharpen a blade I can usually categorize it by feel. I might not be able to differentiate AUS-8 from 12C27, but they are easy to distinguish from 440A.
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That's because you are doing the sharpening and you know what your technique and equipment do to your blades. I was thinking of something more along the following lines:

1. Identical blade geometries (identical edge profiles)
2. Different steels
3. Third party does the sharpening
4. Tester is blindfolded so he/she can only feel the steel and edge, not see it.

Cliff seems to think that some steels can take a "sharper edge" than others. Even if this claim is true, and taking into account the issues with edge profiles, I wonder if we are talking about differences that are only apparant with microscopic examination. It is not within the realm of my experience (let me put it that way) that people can tell the kind of steel from which a knife is made by feeling its edge. Putting it another way, every good cutlery steel today (and granting an appropriate geometry), whether stainless or not, can be brought to an edge that will melt into flesh with but the slightest pressure. Note that I am <b>not saying</b> that you (any of you) or I can do this with every blade you (or I) own, but the reason for this, from what I can see, is mostly edge geometry, not steel type.
 
Not exactly knife-related, but just FYI...

I've been involved in a project to implement a new global Unix "root model". To that end, we've replaced the authentication servers, the logging servers; updated all the client bits to the latest version and redone the entire access control list.

Everyone complained how HORRIBLE the old solution was, and that it was so slow as to be unusable.

Well, benchmarks have proven that the NEW-AND-IMPROVED version is actually 1/2 the speed of the old one, but we TOLD everyone how great the new version was, and we've gotten RAVE reviews about how great it the new one is. "It's really fast" "This is great", etc.


Don't forget the human element. It constantly amazes me.

Mike
 
I switched from using an apex and/or a 204 and bought a set of pretty nice stones. i gave no thought to making sure that I completed the same number of stroke on each side of the blade. I know use the stone on one side, flip the balde and do it again. When I am done, I have the exact same number of passess on both sides. That with a slightly diffenet angle has Finally started me on the way to becoming a better sharpener.
I cannot thank you all enough. I think I just may overcome this, and end up with MY "perfect edge" after all.

Merry Christmas all,
wolf
 
FINALLY!!!!! After about a year of FRUSTRATION!!!! It came down to a simple NEWBIE Error. I was making too many passes on one side of the blade, instead of equal amounts on both sides. I switched to just stones, no more Apex. I was NOT turning the blade over equally. I have taken EVERYTHING said on the topic and just started from the VERY beginning. I am a NEWBIE, so the "perfect edge" is not something that I will achieve yet, but I KNEW what I was ending up with was NOT what I wanted. My knives ended up sharp. VERY sharp, but when it cut it just felt like the edge had "big teeth". I would make ten passes on one side and maybe five on the other. I played with different abgles. It was NOT until I just tried "freehand" after buying a set of five "OK" stones. NOW, after FOLLOWING YOUR INSTRUCTION, I have found my PEFECT NEWBIE edge:D :D
Thanks to you ALL, I now have a point from which to start REALLY learning how to sharpen!!!....Thanks again..........wolf
 
matthew rapaport :

Cliff seems to think that some steels can take a "sharper edge" than others.
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This isn't what I "think", it is what I have measured and is based on simple physical properties of the steels. If you go back and look at some posts of mine ~2 years ago you will note I said the exact opposite as I had found that I could put a shaving edge on any steel. I have come to the conclusion that steels will take different edges because I have become more discriminating. I changed my conclusion when the data didn't reflect it.

if we are talking about differences that are only apparant with microscopic examination.
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You can readily see the difference in cutting ability that the sharpness mkaes if you attempt very difficult tasks. On any gross cutting ability (3/8" hemp), you will not see any effect as sharpness is just a very small factor and completely swamped out by geometry and even such things as handle issues.

Putting it another way, every good cutlery steel today (and granting an appropriate geometry), whether stainless or not, can be brought to an edge that will melt into flesh with but the slightest pressure.
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Sure, however there are much higher standards for sharpness. I can bet for example, that if you took one the knives that Jeff has described as not taking a really sharp edge (ATS-34) and gave it anyone on the street they would all say it was very sharp, and probably no one would comment that it was any duller than an AUS8 blade that Jeff ranked as sharper. However someone like R.J. Martine probably could see a difference quite readily.

-Cliff
 
Wirebender: Here is a link to a picture of the Ultimate Edge brand oval diamond "steel" I use:

http://www.knifecenter.com/knifecenter/ultimate/large.html

I bought mine at toptexknives.com, but they don't have a picture. The oval shape allows this hone to work on serrated blades or recurved blades very nicely. The 600 grit cuts reasonably fast and could be used for a final edge that cuts agressively. I usually finish my edge with a few strokes on ceramic rods that are a bit finer though.
 
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