Do we expect too much from pocket knives?

[SilverFoxKnows]

I've noticed more than a couple of threads recently where the poster is surprised that his ultra hard stainless developed chips in the edge or that he experienced lock failure when he batoned his folder. Am I being a jerk when I say "Duh"? I feel like a heretic when I chime in with a recommendation for simple carbon steels or a low end stainless like AUS8. I guess I'm just a simple caveman but I have no desire to buy a knife in ZDP-189. I didn't find
S30V to be to be the answer to life's mysteries, either. And while I would like to try D2 in Queen's Canoe or Gunstock I'm not falling all over myself to pick up a Ka-Bar Extreme or a Kershaw Outcast. Maybe I'm preaching to the choir, here, but it looks to me as if we've given in to the hype and forgotten what works.

Frank

 

[namaarie]

I agree for the most part, but I find some pocket knives to be of extremely high quality and usefulness. I've got a benchmade 552 in S30V that I love. Exceedingly strong lock, and the steel (while hard and would chip if I abused it too much) is very stain-resistant, tough, holds a great edge, etc. That said, I have a Jarvenpaa Pukko in my pocket right now (carbon steel fixed blade). Still, both have their place and I love both a ton.

Chris

 

[Kevin the grey]

Everything has advantages and disadvantages . Learning to get the most out of what we have and our own limitations is part of the fun .

Just ask Cliff he will take down a ponderosa pine with a paper clip .

 

[Aardvark]

Just ask Cliff he will take down a ponderosa pine with a paper clip .

Serrated, though. The right tool for the right job.

 

[Runs With Scissors]

Hmmm...as far as all the new super steels, I kinda walk a fine line. Overall, I think the market is a little bit silly with all the radical new steels, wicked looking designs, etc. As for myself as an individual, I'm well satisfied most of the time with Carbon steels, natural handle materials, and cheaper historic designs- Douk, SAK, Opinels, etc.

That being said, you have to respect historically, if we had all used only what worked and scoffed invention and technology, our knives would still be knapped from flint, the gun wouldn't have been a blip on the screen of history, so we would have had the bow and arrow still, and we'd be sending each other messengers to communicate, and killing them when we disagreed with posts, and that's alot of dead messengers!

I dunno. Maybe my Great Grandfather had it right. he always say in a heavy Slavic accent "In moderation, all things are good."

 

[Yvsa]

I've noticed more than a couple of threads recently where the poster is surprised that his ultra hard stainless developed chips in the edge or that he experienced lock failure when he batoned his folder.

Methinks that comes from not enough research into what a particular steel will do or will not do.
The other part of the problem is the hype put forth that these are super steels and can be treated anyway you please. Personally I don't think any sort of pocketknife should be batoned through anything. When anyone stops to think they should know that treating a super hard folding knife blade like that is just asking for trouble.:grumpy:

Am I being a jerk when I say "Duh"? I feel like a heretic when I chime in with a recommendation for simple carbon steels or a low end stainless like AUS8. I guess I'm just a simple caveman but I have no desire to buy a knife in ZDP-189.

No, you've done your homework and know how to use a knife.

I didn't find S30V to be to be the answer to life's mysteries, either. And while I would like to try D2 in Queen's Canoe or Gunstock I'm not falling all over myself to pick up a Ka-Bar Extreme or a Kershaw Outcast.

Personally I like S30V as well as many of the other super steels. They all have a place and can be used to a great advantage when a knife is used as a knife.
I have a Queen Trapper in D-2 that I got off of Bill Horn @ http://www.cumberlandknifeworks.com/catalog.htm#queen that I absolutely LOVE!!!! It takes and holds a marvelous edge that a simple 1095 blade just can't achieve.
Another thing is how the edge is ground.
A hollow ground or flat ground blade just isn't going to hold up like a convexed edge no matter what the steel is IMO.
If you did buy a Ka-Bar Extreme or a Kershaw Outcast in D-2 and put a nice convexed edge on them methinks either would be good to go.

Maybe I'm preaching to the choir, here, but it looks to me as if we've given in to the hype and forgotten what works.

Frank

Frank I have too agree. There will always be a place for the simple steels. Some folks will always prefer a softer blade down around 50-52 RC because they haven't any way to sharpen a harder blade.
If the $hit should hit the fan today I would go with my simple steel knives simply because I can sharpen them on an abrasive field rock unlike the super hard steels that need diamonds or ceramic whetstones to get them sharp.:thumbup:

 

[nygiantsfan3342]

I've noticed more than a couple of threads recently where the poster is surprised that his ultra hard stainless developed chips in the edge or that he experienced lock failure when he batoned his folder. Am I being a jerk when I say "Duh"? I feel like a heretic when I chime in with a recommendation for simple carbon steels or a low end stainless like AUS8. Frank

I agree about some people expecting to get Tool-Steel toughness from a small size folder. Or some people just try to do the wrong job with the wrong tool. Check out this thread on the ZDP Leek: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=426106

 

[SilverFoxKnows]

Only that hype is, in some cases, overcoming common sense. D2 in a 10" chopper? Wouldn't A2 be a better choice? S30V in big hard use blades? To keep 'em from chipping you end up with really thick edges. Wouldn't a small axe be a better chopper than a pry bar knife? Or just make the big knife out of 01 and get a thinner edge? Progress is good but not every single new thing is better than what came before it (Talonite, ceramic blades, titanium blades). If we buy specialized steels should we be surprised when they only do one thing well? If you take a Corvette off road and break the tie rods is it really the fault of the car?

Frank

P.S. I like my S30V Native but would have got it anyway it had been in 440C, AUS8 or 12C27.

 

[Dave Rishar]

It's all good. I like the low alloy stuff and I like the high end supersteels as well. All have their uses.

What I do not like is when manufacturers advertise their stuff as being built like the proverbial brick outhouse and then I find out (the hard way) that they aren't. You know and I both know that folders aren't meant to take down trees and whatnot but if it's advertised as being tough, it ought to be tough. That goes for tools as well as the materials that they're made out of. It's my responsibility to be an informed consumer but when a manufacturer urinates on my head and tells me that it's raining...well, I find that mildly insulting.

That being said, my ZDP-189 Caly received its first sharpening this morning in over a year. 20 licks on coarse diamond, 20 on fine, 15 on the medium and fine Spyderco sticks, and a few more on the Rishar strop and it now pops armhairs again. I'm almost embarrassed to admit it, having been hard on stainless in the past, but I'd actually like to see more of this steel in circulation. It's not easy to sharpen by any means and natural hones can't even be used, but it takes a looooooooong time for it to dull. I fantasize about a straight razor made from this stuff.

(Of course, I wasn't batoning logs or anything with it either. I mean, it's a Caly. Come on now. I don't beat on everything that I own.)

Away from the comfort of my home, I'd prefer something in low alloy for the reasons Yvsa mentioned. As much as I like S30V and ZDP, I would not want to try to sharpen this stuff without diamond hones and ceramics. And really, are they that much better than simple high carbon steel with a good heat treat? No. They are a bit better for some uses, though. I'm no longer prejudiced against them in any event.

 

[Fiddleback]

I've got no tactical looking folders. No Sebenza's (though they look well made). No spyderco's. The only Kabar I own is a barlow thats 50 years old.

I like carbon steel. I do have a couple of scandanavian SS knives, and a BRKT that is SV30 and is great.

But I still prefer a carbon steel blade, and a simple natural material handle. Thats just me though. And I wouldn't be batoning a pocket knife unless my life depended on it.

 

[Vivi]

I've noticed more than a couple of threads recently where the poster is surprised that his ultra hard stainless developed chips in the edge or that he experienced lock failure when he batoned his folder. Am I being a jerk when I say "Duh"? I feel like a heretic when I chime in with a recommendation for simple carbon steels or a low end stainless like AUS8. I guess I'm just a simple caveman but I have no desire to buy a knife in ZDP-189. I didn't find
S30V to be to be the answer to life's mysteries, either. And while I would like to try D2 in Queen's Canoe or Gunstock I'm not falling all over myself to pick up a Ka-Bar Extreme or a Kershaw Outcast. Maybe I'm preaching to the choir, here, but it looks to me as if we've given in to the hype and forgotten what works.

Frank

While I sympathize with you when it comes to blade steels, I don't think we expect too much from folders. When batoning with one, if it's moderate to heavy impacting the lock should be disengaged. If you buy a high hardness, modern stainless steel, chances are the heat treat might not be done as well as it could and you could get chipping. These things are common knowledge.

I'm happy with simple 1095 or 420hc myself and I don't understand why most people here aren't. Maybe it's a distaste for sharpening, but I don't find stropping every so often to be much of a deal. Once you get your bevels in place it takes a lot of use to need to re-set them. If Spyderco offered the Manix in Aus8 for 25$ cheaper it would be a no question purchase for me. The steel they use in Byrd knives for instance has me satisfied. I honestly feel a good heat treat is much more important than what type of steel it is. Bevel angles too, but those we can easily modify ourselves.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I've noticed more than a couple of threads recently where the poster is surprised that his ultra hard stainless developed chips in the edge or that he experienced lock failure when he batoned his folder. Am I being a jerk when I say "Duh"?

The problem is both that these ultra hard stainless steels are also being used in large tactical knives and even swords and axes and promoted for high durability. Plus many of the locks are also promoted the same with "1000 in.lbs" and other very high quoted break points. It isn't then reasonable to blame a user when said steel or lock fails to perform as promoted, you critize the manufacturer for claiming performance which is highly exaggerated/skewed.

-Cliff

 

[cjpgeyer]

Do y'all think proper blade geometry is a large factor? No mistake, using the right tool for the right job. A stone skinning blade is often much smaller than you would expect, but you can't build a shelter with it (nor do you really need to, I guess! ) I definitly look for a good heat treat, as well.

 

[SilverFoxKnows]

The problem is both that these ultra hard stainless steels are also being used in large tactical knives and even swords and axes and promoted for high durability. Plus many of the locks are also promoted the same with "1000 in.lbs" and other very high quoted break points. It isn't then reasonable to blame a user when said steel or lock fails to perform as promoted, you critize the manufacturer for claiming performance which is highly exaggerated/skewed.

-Cliff

You're right. The makers are, in large part, to blame. I guess my original post has more to do with common sense than anything else. The average joe who buys a knife at the local sporting goods store may not know what he's getting, it looks tough- it must be tough. But there is so much info, here, that it still surprises me what people try. You would think they would know better, should know better.

I'm not saying I've never done stupid things, used a knife in a manner it wasn't designed for. But I didn't kid myself. I knew if I used my Native to open cans of pineapple juice I was going to eff up the edge. But I made a decision to travel light, didn't have my SAK with me and much to my dismay my friends didn't have a can opener. The girls were stressing about having the drinks made before people started showing up so I went ahead and opened two cans.

Was I surprised I got little tiny chips out of the edge? No, not at all. I didn't look at the edge and say "But Strider uses S30V". That's what I mean by common sense. Yes, knife makers will use hype to sell product. But so does every other industry. If we're not savvy consumers we're going to be broke and disappointed. For the record, I'm not morally opposed to high end steels, I even like some of them. But I just have to slap my head when guys who can tell you the carbon and chromium content of ten different steels act dumbfounded that their knife broke when they did something dumb.

If I'm totally out of line here please say so.

Frank

 

[kamagong]

I think some people expect too much from their knives. Then again, it might just be that people aren't as skilled in knife use as their ancestors might have been.

I like pocket knives. As much as I love my M43 and my Bark River Rogue I just don't have the opportunity to use them like I do my folders. I'm not as picky as some here, I like both tactical folders with high tech materials and old classics made with natural materials. As Sal Glesser likes to say, "All good, just different." That being said I expect different things from different knives. I don't think that a stockman should be subjected to the same hard use as a Military or a 110. But if a manufacturer goes out of his way to tout a product's strengths I definitely think that consumers should call him out rather than just take him on his word. If he claims that his knives are tough as nails, then use them and use them hard. Just don't expect a pocket scalpel to work well as a chisel and vice-versa.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I knew if I used my Native to open cans of pineapple juice I was going to eff up the edge.

It should not. I can do that with my knives and it doesn't damage the edge and mine are fairly thin/acute.

Yes, knife makers will use hype to sell product. But so does every other industry. If we're not savvy consumers we're going to be broke and disappointed.

Yes, but the number of people sending out realistic data is far outweighed by the people hyping the steels in general and it thus isn't unrealistic for people to have exaggerated opinions. S30V was origionally compared to A2 in toughness and there were even materials statistics and statements from metallurgists to argue thier merits. I agree that people should be more educated and be able to see through the sales pitch, but not everyone has the time or even background, to read metallurgy texts and the required reference materials to see those arguements are absurd.

-Cliff

 

[SilverFoxKnows]

is that people should use common sense. If you buy a pair of $200 sneakers with Michael Jordan's name on them do you really think you're going to jump that much higher. If you buy Axe or Tag body spray do you really think women in the grocery store are going to tear your clothes off. You wouldn't push your Toyota truck off a cliff because the ad showed it fall and land on all fours without a scratch. Take advertising hype (in any industry) with a grain of salt. Don't expect a 3oz. knife to be as tough as a 23oz. knife, no matter what the ad says. As to the 1000lb/inch locks, surely I'm not the only one who learned as a youth that a rope with a 1000 breaking point doesn't mean you can DROP a 1000lbs and have it hold. Common sense.

Frank

 

[funktree]

I have been carrying liner lock 440a folders for years, never had a problem with them in any way, never knew anyone thought other wise til I started reading these forums a couple months ago. I never use the knife in such a way that a lock failure would bite me if I can help it, but thats just common sense to me, and 440a has always been fine for me, never had a blade chip or break or any of that

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Don't expect a 3oz. knife to be as tough as a 23oz. knife, no matter what the ad says.

It is very rare that people complain when a 3 oz knife doesn't show the ability of a 23 oz knife. They complain when the knife doesn't live up to the tasks it was promoted to perform. This would be no different than buying a khukuri from HI and complaining if there were problems with prying, chopping, splitting, etc. . Don't blame the customers, call the manufacturers for lying.

As to the 1000lb/inch locks, surely I'm not the only one who learned as a youth that a rope with a 1000 breaking point doesn't mean you can DROP a 1000lbs and have it hold.

The knives are also promoted for impacts as well, that is why there is an MBC rating on some Spyderco's. People also don't drop 1000 lbs on locks and expect them to hold, they essentially drop a few pounds on them and the locks fail. So how would you feel about a line with a 1000 lbs breaking point which broke when you attached it to a can of tomatos and jerked on it and it broke.

-Cliff

 

[Thomas Linton]

I've got no tactical looking folders. No Sebenza's (though they look well made). No spyderco's.

I bought my first Spyderco so long ago, no one was usin' the "tactical" tag for knives -- a green-handled Endura. As a result, I don't think of them that way -- "tactical." 'Course I never bought one of those hooked jobbydoos.