Do we expect too much from pocket knives?

I was making the foam lining for a box'o'knives tonight...put them all down and drew the outlines then i sliced the foam out...... with my no 6 opinel (which came without its locking ring)
It was the sharpest and handiest for the job...
I had to laugh at that...it DIDNT get a place in the box!
I dont trust any lock, or even knife blade to hold when i'm doing somthing like hammer the tip though a can. or 'sawing' through smothing. Treat it like a slipjoint and you wont loose fingers!
I dont think any folders going to be as safe as a good fixed blade.
 
Actually you don't find the slip joint crowd having these problems :) :)

I have a rather funny friction folder in my collection, real nice elk handle, 3/16-1/4" thick L6 blade, and a very thick grind. Rock solid knife even with no lock. Haven't really found a use for it though :)

A good Case CV slipjoint, a SAK, or an Opinel or any other thin bladed, flat ground knife makes a heck of a good cutter, and no need to impress anyone with durability issues. . .
 
knifetester said:
Actually you don't find the slip joint crowd having these problems ...............

.... or any other thin bladed, flat ground knife makes a heck of a good cutter, and no need to impress anyone with durability issues. . .
Click to expand...

MAkes me think of osti the 'iceman's flint dagger, triangular and pretty small it reminded me for some reason of a boxcutter knife. I've seen guys on the TV take appart deer (and photos of bigger game- inc an elephant) with nothing but flakes knocked off a flint core. They just had a good idea what they were doing, and knew how to use their tools.
IN the 'old days' many sons would go off into the bush with the best kitchen/butcher knife...( son no.7 ended up with a spoon....) and they did pretty OK.

Coorect me if i'm wrong but I read that it was the marbles woodcraft knife (in the 20's?) that introduced the idea of a thick, slab like blade...prior to that people just took care not to treat their knives like pry-bars or shovels.
 
o1Alex said:
...but I read that it was the marbles woodcraft knife (in the 20's?) that introduced the idea of a thick, slab like blade
Click to expand...

No, the actual first knife had that design. The origional hand axes were multi-purpose tools. They evolved into specialized cutting tools which were focused on specific uses. There have always been very thick knife blades for various uses. Most blades for cutting vegetation are very thick (1/4") as well there are garden knives, shop knives, wood splitting knives, etc. . The modern "tactical" market certainly tends to promote durability over cutting ability but critizing that viewpoint is kind of odd in the HI forum considering that a high durability is one of the trademarks.

-Cliff
 
You live and learn. Based on Yvsa's recommendation of the Queen D2 Trapper I got the Queen D2 Gunstock and love it. What a great little knife, and great steel for a pocket knife. I already had a couple of Case Trappers or would have also gotten the same as Yvsa.

I think it is likely that D2 might chip out on larger knives if they are shocked hard enough. I snagged one of the big Ontario RAT-7's in D2, the one with the Ram's horn handle, and was a bit concerned about it, but wanted the handle and won't abuse it that much. My favorite all around blade steel is still ATS-34, which gives the best combination of razor sharpness and edge holding ability, but is still easy to sharpen.

I always liked A2, and for a long time it seemed that only Chris Reeve was using it regularly, but Bark Rivers are mostly A2, and because of the convex grind on those they really seem sharper out of the box than the CRK. Reeve switched to S30V I think on his Green Beret and Neal Roberts knives and it is scary tough stuff. I have heard that it is less attractive and doesn't polish out as well, which is why Reeve uses a coating on those blades. (The Harsey Lone Wolf Tactical also uses it though and it looks fine, so I don't know about that...)

Norm
 
Cliff Stamp said:
No, the actual first knife had that design. The origional hand axes were multi-purpose tools. They evolved into specialized cutting tools which were focused on specific uses. There have always been very thick knife blades for various uses. Most blades for cutting vegetation are very thick (1/4") as well there are garden knives, shop knives, wood splitting knives, etc. . The modern "tactical" market certainly tends to promote durability over cutting ability but critizing that viewpoint is kind of odd in the HI forum considering that a high durability is one of the trademarks.

-Cliff
Click to expand...

I dont know about that- my knapping is P..poor but i was talking with a guy who does it semi-professonaly and he demonstarted knocking flake from a 'core'- its sharper then a scalple and disposable. He told me he had knocked off over 300 blades from one core just to see how many you could use. The 'bladed' knives that came later had a very thin pressure flaked edge but were only used for cutting (being pretty britle...)
Hand axes have always puzzled me, since they LOOK like they were used for everything, but few have signs of actualy being used as far as i've been able to find. I do know that by far the majority of old knives i've seen have been thin bladed, basicly like a big carving knife. I can see thicker blades being used for things like wood splitting ect, but i've never seen a thick bladed garden knife.
 
o1Alex said:
...i've never seen a thick bladed garden knife.
Click to expand...

Lee Valley sells a number of them, they are wide, usually with a bit of a scallop and often serrated. They are basically a very narrow and sharpened trowel.

-Cliff
 
Yvsa said:
.....Some folks will always prefer a softer blade down around 50-52 RC because they haven't any way to sharpen a harder blade.
If the $hit should hit the fan today I would go with my simple steel knives simply because I can sharpen them on an abrasive field rock unlike the super hard steels that need diamonds or ceramic whetstones to get them sharp.:thumbup: :cool: :D
Click to expand...

LOL!
Imagining some guy with a super high rockwell knife in the wilderness rubbing it with a rock "Thrity five hundred and three....thirty five hundred and four... time to do the otehr side."
 
Even the hardest and highest alloy steels are easily abraded by rocks. I have sharpened alloys like VG-10 on random rocks and even the really extreme ones can't ignore the abrasion of a rock, though usually it takes pretty extreme circumstances to get them that blunt like digging or similar.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
No, the actual first knife had that design. The origional hand axes were multi-purpose tools. They evolved into specialized cutting tools which were focused on specific uses. There have always been very thick knife blades for various uses. Most blades for cutting vegetation are very thick (1/4") as well there are garden knives, shop knives, wood splitting knives, etc. . The modern "tactical" market certainly tends to promote durability over cutting ability but critizing that viewpoint is kind of odd in the HI forum considering that a high durability is one of the trademarks.

-Cliff
Click to expand...

I think you've totally missed my point, all the way around. This was not about khukuris. This was about using the right tool for the right job. If you try to cut sheetrock with a thin ZDP gent's knife don't act amazed when the tip snaps off. If you try to use a folder like an axe don't be surprised when it breaks. "Chopping" and "Opinel" don't belong together. That's not what it was built for. You can use a screwdriver like a chisel but don't expect it to fit screws like it used to. Didn't anyone take shop class in high school?

Frank
 
SilverFoxKnows said:
This was not about khukuris. This was about using the right tool for the right job.
Click to expand...

I used the HI khukuris as an example of users expecting a product to live up to the description. Bill was clear they were expected to perform tasks that many makers and manufacturers stated were abusive and thus it isn't out of line for the customers to so use them. This is obviously no different than buying a tactical folder which is promoted for both a very tough steel, which is also used in swords and axes, and a very strong lock rated for both high loads and impacts and expecting it to be able to perform such use.

Yes you can obviously exceed the limits of any tool, and with experience you will realize what these limits are and see than many of the claims made are simply unreasonable and just exaggeration. However it is vastly unfair to critize users for being ignorant of the truth when there is so much hype and especially unless you are willing to publically and openly call the makers and manufactures on such hype. Many of the problems with the knives reported are also in no way abusive as they are chipping on cardboard, plastics, carving woods, and even light vegetation like corn stalks.

Why should you not chop with an Opinel? There are lots of fixed blades of the same length which are even of thinner stock and even stainless steel which are designed to chop. Being a folder is of no concern because the chopping impacts are so light that it in no way will stress the lock. It is a piece of tempered carbon steel. Properly hardened you should be able to take a hammer and hit it with no problems because they are just spring hard in an Opinel and thus should be extremely tough. Even if the Opinel was full hard it is so light you would not break it by chopping.

-Cliff
 
I remember a feller griping about how his knife (a Buck) just wouldn't hold an edge for beans. One day I saw him cut a piece of heater hose with it, by laying the hose on the steel bumper of a deuce-and-a-half and sawing through it (the hose, not the bumper :D ). The sound of that poor knife edge grating against that steel bumper made me have to clench my teeth. I asked him if doing stuff like that might not be why his knife wouldn't keep an edge. His answer, no joke, "but it's a Buck, I read somewhere that they test 'em by cutting through nails. . . . . . .".

I may be wrong, but I think that's the kind of attitude that Frank's talking about. ;)

Sarge
 
That was my point. Buck used to cut bolts in half with their knives to show their superiority. Now why do you blame the user instead of the company for performing a very misleading test. Instead of critizing the guy for not falling for they hype, educate him as to why the promotion was flawed and then denounce that promotion publically. Consider the only reason than any of use are so educated was that at some point in time someone did this for us, either directly, or by putting their words into print for us to read. Would anyone really want to argue that the victims of con men should be blamed because they should have known better?

-Cliff
 
that's exactly what I'm talking about.

And Cliff, nobody has a problem calling out Cold Steel and Dark Ops on the hype. To my eyes it looks like we have some sacred cows around here. Why should you not chop with an Opinel? Because we have axes. All my crusty old shop teachers said to use the right tool for the job. When I was younger I thought they were just being crusty old men. Now that I'm older I realize they knew what they were talking about. I doubt Nessmuk batoned his Canoe.

Frank

edit- Common sense. That's what started this whole thing. Nobody uses common sense. Sure, you can baton an Opinel through a big branch. But is it the best tool for the job? NO. You can tow a boat with a minivan. I'd rather rent a truck.
 
Bill was clear they were expected to perform tasks that many makers and manufacturers stated were abusive and thus it isn't out of line for the customers to so use them. This is obviously no different than buying a tactical folder which is promoted for both a very tough steel, which is also used in swords and axes, and a very strong lock rated for both high loads and impacts and expecting it to be able to perform such use.
>>>>> Cliff Stamp

But Cliff; HI khuks actually did what you tested and Bill said

munk
 
SilverFoxKnows said:
And Cliff, nobody has a problem calling out Cold Steel and Dark Ops on the hype.
Click to expand...

That is simply because they are unpopular. However it is hardly the case that they are the only companies promoting very heavy use of high carbide stainless steel and folders. Doug Ritter for example has promoted not only chopping but batoning with his RSK. How many people who have complained in this thread publically critized him for that promotion. How can you fault someone who then buys that knife and it fails to perform those activities.

Why should you not chop with an Opinel? Because we have axes.
Click to expand...

Most people don't generally carry axes with them everywhere and thus people develop skills to be able to adapt to less than ideal circumstances. This is no different than adapting to using a smaller axe when hiking/camping because you don't carry full size felling axes.

It is often very difficult to carry knives of any size let alone axes in most places so you often can't use the right tool because you don't have it. Also in general you don't use axes to chop wood that you cut with light blades. An Opinel for example chops alders far more effectively than an axe.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
That was my point. Buck used to cut bolts in half with their knives to show their superiority. Now why do you blame the user instead of the company for performing a very misleading test. Instead of critizing the guy for not falling for they hype, educate him as to why the promotion was flawed and then denounce that promotion publically. Consider the only reason than any of use are so educated was that at some point in time someone did this for us, either directly, or by putting their words into print for us to read. Would anyone really want to argue that the victims of con men should be blamed because they should have known better?

-Cliff
Click to expand...

If a grown man doesn't have better sense than to use a six-by bumper for a cutting board, he deserves to tote a dull knife. I don't give a fat rat's butt who made it, or how they advertised it.

Sarge
 
SilverFoxKnows said:
Common sense. That's what started this whole thing. Nobody uses common sense. Sure, you can baton an Opinel through a big branch. But is it the best tool for the job? NO. You can tow a boat with a minivan. I'd rather rent a truck.
Click to expand...

You answered your own question. The Opinel is capable of chopping and batoning, this has been proven by my own use and others such as Cliff. The thread about my failed Opinel was due to a manufacturing defect. If an Opinel is readily capable of performing all the wood-working I'll have need for during a day hike (Batoning open wet wood, making wood shavings, notching wood, de-limbing small branches from shelter creation etc) and weighs less than a modern Tactical folder, then it's a lot more convenient for me to carry that than a small hatchet or a good sized fixed blade. Also, an Opinel can be carried in the pocket. An axe or fixed blade on me would get the cops called on me. There are many reasons I carry what I do. I use the Opinels within their scope of work and they preform as they should (Save for the defective #12). In regards to Opinels I get the impression the converse of the thread title is true; that is many fellow forumites expect too little from them, possibly due to simple craftsmanship and appearance and / or thin blades.

Sarge, I think we need to realize most people are very ignorant about knives. My friends for instance are genuinely surprised when they find out I know how to sharpen a knife. I don't know anyone in person who knows how to sharpen knives around here.
 
I'm not talking about carrying axes everywhere, or even most places. Common sense, Cliff. But if you go marching into the woods for the week with the intention of building a log cabin with a pocket knife you deserve to be wet and cold. If I have big wood to break up I'm not reaching for an Opinel or a Ritter Grip. When I go camping, even here in SoCal, I bring more than a pocket knife.

I've used the wrong tool plenty of times. But I was under no illusions. I knew it was the wrong tool and later cursed my lazy butt for not going to get the right tool. Sometimes it pays to have a multi tool on your belt. But if you crawl under your car with nothing but a pair of pliers you deserve rounded off bolts. A set of wrenches takes up hardly any room in the trunk. Do you believe everything you see on TV? I sure don't. Buyer beware is nothing new.

Frank
 
I think the ability to adapt your skills to unconventional circumstances has value too.

If I can manage to get another Opinel 12 before heavy snow hits Ohio, I'll take you up on building some shelters with it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top