Do you believe, and more discussion.

[Houlahound]

Your opening thread says, respect others beliefs! Free will does exist and many cHose to not believe and many other areas inbete..

What makes you think free will exists, it's not obvious to me.

 

[Rhinoknives1]

What makes you think free will exists, it's not obvious to me.

Just cause free will isn’t obvious to you. Doesn’t mean it isn’t to others..

 

[Houlahound]

Just cause free will isn’t obvious to you. Doesn’t mean it isn’t to others..

Ok disregard me, what makes you think free will exists?

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Ok disregard me, what makes you think free will exists?

When you started this thread you said to be respectful of others beliefs. I’m going to exercise some free will.......I’m done here. Thanks and have a nice night!

 

[UffDa]

Free will? My last one cost me $250. This thread needs a little humor.

 

[Lance Leon]

Much or religious text is aimed at building support, armies, a base of worshipers, etc, for a particular sect but some of the texts are obviously rules to live by. I found out the Koran prescribes you cut your nails every so often and gives the reason as cleanliness. Now remember- this was prior to anyone knowing anything about germs or infection but this old book told folks to keep their nails short in what's obviously an attempt to keep them from having feces,(wiping butt) blood, fish guts, dirt, whatever..from under the nails. Why care back then? Surely not because they were afraid of tiny germs. Who came up with that, or taught them that, and why? Surely it was a pain to do, they didn't have nail clippers then. Why not covet or murder? Who decided that was wrong and why? If a more advanced or divine being didn't teach it who did? The geniuses of the day, who obviously weren't the most valuable members of the tribes, being more thinkey and less huntey? "Magical" protected tribe members? (Hey, Little Big Man, I'll be your wife).. In fact, the Spartans would just toss the weaklings off a cliff, and only after some form of religion was used to answer (attempt anyway) unanswerable questions were the smart able to exert some control over the masses.

Even protohumans were smart enough to figure out that do x increases chance of y. The Muslims (and much of ancient humanity) understood that filth, dirt, and lack of hygiene resulted in (or increased chances of) sickness, disease, and death. They didn't need to know about the tiny microorganisms and the nuances of human biology to realize that. Their knowledge of this is a documented fact, by the way.

It seems to me that believers (in any religion, deity, supernatural force, etc) will attribute things to 'how else do we explain this?'. If you look closer, there's always an explanation. And if you can't find one/there isn't, why are we jumping to the conclusion that it's god(s) or some higher power?

 

[JJHollowman]

Even protohumans were smart enough to figure out that do x increases chance of y. The Muslims (and much of ancient humanity) understood that filth, dirt, and lack of hygiene resulted in (or increased chances of) sickness, disease, and death. Their knowledge of this is a documented fact, by the way.

It seems to me that believers (in any religion, deity, supernatural force, etc) will attribute things to 'how else do we explain this?'. If you look closer, there's always an explanation. And if you can't find one/there isn't, why are we jumping to the conclusion that it's god(s) or some higher power?

It's likely there are higher more advanced powers than we humans in the Milky Way alone. And of those beings, higher still. And so on. Carried along those lines you eventually get to where there's a being, or beings, within the parameters of what we'd think of as God.

 

[Houlahound]

It's likely there are higher more advanced powers than we humans in the Milky Way alone. And of those beings, higher still. And so on. Carried along those lines you eventually get to where there's a being, or beings, within the parameters of what we'd think of as God.

So you believe God is just an alien life form with a high IQ and more advanced technology.

That's certainly what started the new guinea plane cult where villagers saw their first white man emerge from an aeroplane.

He literally was worshipped as God and they built plane effigies out of plants to worship when be disappeared back in to the sky.

To them God, to us average white man in an aeroplane.

 

[Lance Leon]

It's likely there are higher more advanced powers than we humans in the Milky Way alone. And of those beings, higher still. And so on. Carried along those lines you eventually get to where there's a being, or beings, within the parameters of what we'd think of as God.

Certainly there's a game of probabilities here. That said, I'm not particularly keen on going into the maths and multitude of uncertain variables, all of which would only give us a clue at a guess of what's really 'out there', so to speak. I've seen the odds argued both ways. As far as I'm concerned, the most sensible option is to assume nothing until we're given some reason to say otherwise. Still, I can understand your idea about advanced aliens of some sort - you're not the first person I've spoken to who's thought along those lines. And in my humble opinion, it's more reasonable an explanation of the supernatural (AKA things we don't understand yet) than most major religions' conception of 'god because this book says god'.

 

[JJHollowman]

So you believe God is just an alien life form with a high IQ and more advanced technology.

That's certainly what started the new guinea plane cult where villagers saw their first white man emerge from an aeroplane.

He literally was worshipped as God and they built plane effigies out of plants to worship when be disappeared back in to the sky.

To them God, to us average white man in an aeroplane.

I'm thinking God is alien insofar as we don't understand him. God is likely aware of dimensions we can't comprehend and can travel to/through those, is able to channel the energy for vast creation and such. The Bible backs those concepts.

I don't think evolution and the concept of God are at odds. I think evolution happened but the beginning building blocks that allowed it were created somehow, the same as all things that have ever existed have. The real mind blower is realizing that God didn't just pop into existence from his own doing, something created him too. It's impossible to create yourself if you don't exist. You'd have to exist to have the will the to create yourself. Something started the big bang and has perhaps started a lot of big bangs over a lot of dimensions, and I think that's God.

 

[JJHollowman]

Certainly there's a game of probabilities here. That said, I'm not particularly keen on going into the maths and multitude of uncertain variables, all of which would only give us a clue at a guess of what's really 'out there', so to speak. I've seen the odds argued both ways. As far as I'm concerned, the most sensible option is to assume nothing until we're given some reason to say otherwise. Still, I can understand your idea about advanced aliens of some sort - you're not the first person I've spoken to who's thought along those lines. And in my humble opinion, it's more reasonable an explanation of the supernatural (AKA things we don't understand yet) than most major religions' conception of 'god because this book says god'.

It explains a lot like people seeing angels. People from antiquity talking about flying men bathed in light and such. Stick a headlamp on Zorlack from plant Zimbo and there's your halo.

 

[3fifty7]

I am a Christian.
I believe in Jesus Christ in the flesh as the Son of God.
I believe in the birth, death , and resurrection of Christ.
I believe He guides me and that comforts me.
I believe one day I will see family members and friends who have gone before me.


I believe unfortunately that religion all to often can get in the way of Christianity.

 

[Houlahound]

The real mind blower is realizing that God didn't just pop into existence from his own doing, something created him too.

So you believe in an infinite number of God's without limit. Kinda makes god mundane and trivial if there are infinity of them and each one more powerful than another. Our one must be low on the list given how sh!tty things are getting here with pollution, crime war etc.

All those infinity God's you claim and nobody sane has ever unambiguously seen one, the chances?

 

[JJHollowman]

So you believe in an infinite number of God's without limit. Kinda makes god mundane and trivial if there are infinity of them and each one more powerful than another. Our one must be low on the list given how sh!tty things are getting here with pollution, crime war etc.

All those infinity God's you claim and nobody sane has ever unambiguously seen one, the chances?

Not endless gods, more and more powerful/advanced beings until finally there's just one most powerful entity. No, I haven't seen God, aliens, any of it, but we're here. That's proof of creation, otherwise we wouldn't be. Nothing would be. That's where faith comes in. It's beneficial to humanity to believe in good and evil and right and wrong and it's beneficial to humanity to believe there's a creator of all things that guide humans to take the path of goodness. It's also beneficial for humanity to believe that somebody cared enough to sacrifice themselves for our guilt and sin. Such self sacrifice is revered by most all peoples throughout history, even if it was sacrifice of a tribe member by natives for a good crop. I'm no critic of any religion or lack of it, I do think those who aren't believers would be were we to have enough science to prove how it happened. If we knew that entity A created B by doing x and y, that understanding would instill belief. Someday our knowledge may reach that level but simple existence is enough to prove something happened. Then again, a lot of folks can be given any amount of proof about something, such as evolution, and still think the earth is 6,000 years old. I read an article where a known flat earther said "we have believers around the globe". Just on this planet alone there are life forms varying in empathy, advancement and intelligence, in my opinion to think that doesn't apply to countless worlds we know nothing of is bucking the odds.

Unrestrained taking of everything/anything for one's own benefit through theft, rape, murder, war, is a clear cut plan for destruction of a life form and perhaps a planet. Religion is often used as justification for that and in my opinion that's one major problem with it. I doubt it was Gods plan to kill all the buffalo to starve the Indians but because they were "godless savages" it went over fine with the white settlers in power. No enlightened prophet, ever, said to kill off vast species and nationalities of people but plenty of humans have said they said that. Televangelists say God told them for you to send them money, as well. I've yet to hear of anybody sending one money who was blessed in a substantial way that may not have happened anyway but I've seen tv preachers who wouldn't have a mansion had they not told people that.

 

[JJHollowman]

Say that religion is entirely a human construct. Do you see people behaving better, or worse once they've learned that? No light, no afterlife, just now. Don't bother, just do as you shall and as thou wilt (that's actually modern Satanism). How many people do you see restraining themselves from every hedonism and impulse imaginable? Many don't now, now add in everybody who just found out there's nothing after this life. I'm doubtful that hedonism as defined as a bunch of swingers at a mutual sex orgy being evil but I'm sure that a serial killer raping and killing women is. I'm doubtful that a committed homosexual relationship is evil but it benefitted the leaders of the day to say it was because gays don't brred taxpayers, soldiers and worhsippers. I'm doubtful that a woman shwoing her hair or body is evil but it benefitted the leaders who said it did because I'm sure it cut down on domestic strife and adultery and kept the minds of the commoners on important things like obeying the leader. Plus, women couldn't soldier, usually, so why not keep the soldiers happy? Much easier to go to war thinking your wife wasn't walking the market in a sundress while you're on the front lines.

 

[Houlahound]

Say that religion is entirely a human construct. Do you see people behaving better, or worse once they've learned that? No light, no afterlife, just now. Don't bother, just do as you shall and as thou wilt (that's actually modern Satanism). How many people do you see restraining themselves from every hedonism and impulse imaginable? Many don't now, now add in everybody who just found out there's nothing after this life.

This is the only point in this thread I strongly oppose and disagree with. On every level I can think of it is extremely degrading, and denies all humans any dignity and reduces us all to psychopathic soulless, mindless slaves created only to worship and fear god.

Not saying I don't respect your belief, I just think it is the most impoverished conception of god and humans.

TLDR: your basically saying the only thing that stops you being a mindless raping & killing machine is fear of a big daddy god in the sky watching and taking notes.

Please keep believing for all our sakes.

 

[JJHollowman]

This is the only point in this thread I strongly oppose and disagree with. On every level I can think of it is extremely degrading, and denies all humans any dignity and reduces us all to psychopathic soulless, mindless slaves created only to worship and fear god.

Not saying I don't respect your belief, I just think it is the most impoverished conception of god and humans.

TLDR: your basically saying the only thing that stops you being a mindless raping & killing machine is a belief in a big daddy god in the sky is fear he is watching and taking notes for your after death punishment.

No, but it does stop some. Would you agree? How would you say you learned right from wrong? Yes, some is taught, but do you think there's some of that you're born with?

 

[Houlahound]

No, but it does stop some. Would you agree?

Perhaps I don't know, I think what stops most people is that most are not nuts.....that and armed police, a judicial system, a brutal prison system, a mental health system, punitive state power and good folk that will take you out.

The other thing that invalidates your argument is that the vast majority of criminal in prison believe in god - statistical fact....soooo, so much for that argument.

 

[Houlahound]

Not endless gods, more and more powerful/advanced beings until finally there's just one most powerful entity.

On what logical grounds do you invoke a creator to explain creation all the way up to some arbitrary point in infinity then claim it just stops at one most magical creator.

You destroy your own creator argument by pleading a special case fallacy without justification.

 

[JJHollowman]

Perhaps I don't know, I think what stops most people is that most are not nuts.....that and armed police, a judicial system, a brutal prison system, a mental health system, punitive state power and good folk that will take you out.

The other thing that invalidates your argument is that the vast majority of criminal in prison believe in god - statistical fact....soooo, so much for that argument.

Why are the good folk good? Who's to say that being nuts is evil? Who's to say that serial killers are evil? How do we label those things? We know those things are evil, how?