do you folks really want stainless knives?

C

Chris Hatin

Joined
Dec 20, 1999
Messages
123
this is probably an old topic, but i'm tooling with the idea of making stainless fixed blades. my reason for not doing it so far is that strength-brittleness issue. am i on the wrong path with A2 & D2, or will ATS-34, 154CM, 420V, and BG42 be unconditionally accepted. i know i've lost sales w/o the stainless stuff, but is it that many?
thanks for the help.
chris

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www.geocities.com/chrishatin/hatintec.html
 
I'd prefer D-2 or A-2 to any of the stainless steels, especially in fixed blades. Even for folders, I've never bought a stainless steel when tool steel was an option. Unfortunately, it's usually not an option!
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For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 6:23


 
I am starting to like D2 a lot, and love it and A2 for fixed blades. I am even tempted to start getting more tool steel folders. Hard to beat on a big fixed blade
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But I do like the performance I get from BG-42, CPM420V and ATS-34 (when done right). I don't know how well they work on a larger knife, but most of mine are in the <4" range.

If given a choice, I do tend to go with a stainless steel. But if I like the design, feel and performance of a knife, I wouldn't pass it by because it didn't use one.

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James Segura
San Francisco, CA
 
From my point of view, and I'm only a consumer, I'd prefer A2 over any stainless steel any day. All the stainless steels will rust anyway, so it's not like I have to never take care of the piece. Sharpening A2 is much easier than 440C. And especially on big blades, I think that the stainless stuff will be too brittle. A good tool steel is hard to beat.
Now Talonite might be a different story. With almost a third of it's molecular makeup being Chromium, it will probably never rust. Then again, it's not a steel either, and I think the jury on how it performs in large blades is still out.

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Why do they use sterile needles for lethal injections?
 
I used to live and work right next to the beach, and my old non-stainless knives had a nasty tendancy of getting rust spots, and pitting (this was before I discovered tuf-cloth). I started switching over stainless mainly because I got sick of babying my carbon steel knives every single day. The fact that I normally don't work my knives super hard (i.e., non-stop daily chopping), I've found that today's stainless steel's edge holding capabilities are more than adequate, and I don't have to worry too much about corrosion. I have a thing for BG-42 or VG-10 these days, over most other stainless steels.
 
As Les said in this thread on the custom forum, the wider the scope of your work the better. If you offered stainless and tool steels you would have a wider customer base than if you went with either of the two.

-Cliff
 
My experience shows me that even some of the so-called stainless steels will rust. I have had problems with rust and pitting on an ATS 34 folder blade from a well known and quiet expensive knife factory.
I am forging knives from plain carbon steels, tool steels and "stainless" steels, and even the stainless Damasteel will stain a bit when conditions are tough. There is just not enough chrome and nickel in them to make them really perfectly rust resistant. Look at what's used in kitchen cutlery which is dishwasher safe. In general it is 18/10, which means 18 % chromium and 10 % nickel.
And you allways trade in something for the stainless factor. Nothing is as tough as a well-heat treated 5160 or 52100 steel blade.
Besides, i like the blue-gray patina the carbon steels and some of the tool steels develope in daily use and i personally use only blades from tool or carbon steels.

Achim
 
ATS-34 (when done right)
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I think this say it all. Heat treat. When you offer more than one type of steel, and it comes time to heat treat, what are you going to do? I hope the answer is not to heat treat them together. All the different steels have there strong and week points. IMHO, you can not get great results from any of them, unless your heat treat method is great. I know that many try to be the master of all, and I think this is a mistake. If you spend more time with one material, you can get better with it then anyone (if you strive to), and hopefully become known for it.

Good luck and be true to your self,


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Lynn Griffith-Knifemaker

griffithknives.com
GriffithKN@aol.com
Available Knives
 
There is an interesting article in Tactical Knives March 2000 issue, p. 6 about stainless vs carbon. Has anyone read this?


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Hoodoo

There's no fool like an old fool. You just can't beat experience.
D.O. Flynn
 
I'd go along with Cliff on this one, though I posted a more complete reply to your other thread.

Blues

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Live Free or Die



[This message has been edited by Blues (edited 22 December 1999).]
 
I place no value on stainless, but I'm not a big purchaser of custom blades. I also place very little value on looks. My priorities are function, function, function. But if you depend on me as a customer you're going to starve to death.

I was going over blade options with Mike Irie at his shop and looking at the difference between his ATS-34 and BG42 blades. The ATS took a dazzling mirror finish, the BG42 couldn't really compare. If I was buying a knife to look really great I'd want the ATS for sure. Since I want durability and ease of sharpening I'll opt for BG42. If he had 5160, A2, D2, or L6 I would have picked one of those.
 
It depends on what I'm goignt to use it for. For a daily carry( I don't normally carry fixed blades) I would want stainless. But for carving and other knives that I would only carry once in a while and could be wiped with oil and put away, I would go for something tougher and sharper like your other choices.

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Fix it right the first time, use Baling Wire !
 
i know i've lost sales w/o the stainless stuff, but is it that many?
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I bet you've lost tons of sales if you don't offer stainless. D-2 and A-2 are wonderful steels, but it's worth looking at stainless for 2 good reasons:

1 - For purely sales reasons, you should offer what customers are buying. Many, many stick to stainless. One thing I like in a knifemaker is one who offers multiple steels, including stainless, tool, carbon, etc. And then he can speak *knowledgeably* about the performance of each steel he offers, given what I say are my demands. I do not need him to be judgemental about stainless being for the unknowledgeable.

2 - I've been a big cheerleader for the trend of the past couple years to look at non-stainless steels, but I think many knife snobs have gone overboard in deciding there's no place for stainless steels. Here's one of many good examples where I like stainless best: When I go camping, it's usually with a big group. Many people bring little crappy folders, or 7+" tactical fixed blades. I bring a 4" drop-point fixed blade with a performance grind on it, and it quickly becomes the most popular knife in the group. People borrow it, cut with it, leave it covered with crap, leave it in the lemon-juice-covered tin where the chicken was soaking, etc. Any time other people use my knives, it's best to have a good-performing stainless, or that knife would be in trouble quick! Another example, as much as I love tool and carbon steels, is sometimes I like to be able to cut something gunky with my folder, then wipe it on my pants leg and forget about it for days. Ya, I'm lazy -- so what, that's my problem, and there are times I want the knifemaker to make something that fits ME, not his preconceived notion of what's best for me. Also, I'd never buy my wife anything but stainless. I'd never buy *some* of my non-knife-nut friends anything but stainless.

Remember, it's all about performance, and as the maker, it's your job to help your customer make good decisions. If he's up front about highly-corrosive conditions -- either because other people use the knife, or he's lazy, or whatever -- then a good stainless might be a better performer for him than a carbon steel which is rusted and pitted and had its edge micro-rusted away.

All that said, these days D-2 would be my choice of steel for a wide variety of applications. But I still see plenty of reasons to buy stainless.


Joe
 
I'; be honest. I've never carried a small fixed blade; never had a reason to. For big fixed blades, I like tool steel. For folders, it's stainless all the way. That's mee. As the others have said, you gotta work with the customer.

Howie
 
I've come to prefer carbon steel as it works better than many offerings for often a lower price, but I'll acknowledge that the vast majority seem to prefer shiny. I still buy some stainless like Leathermans (I would prefer one made of the same carbon and tool steels that all of my tools are made of), Swiss Army knives (a carbon/tool steel model would also be nice to try out), and a couple of lockblades that seemed like a good deal. I have a set of Henckels that I bought awhile back that we like but at this stage I might have tried to find a set of carbon steel Sabatier (speling ?), or based on how well the Cold Steel Red River/Hudson Bay knives work and how little they cost I wish they had offered a set of kitchen knives in the same patterns. My daily carry is currently a carbon steel Old Timer stockman (a discontinued model that I just noticed doesn't have a model number in the tang mark) as I use it often and appreciate the performance, especially for the price. I guess I've turned into a retro knut :^)
 
A fighting knife really doesn't need a steel beyond the performance envelope of ATS34 heat-treated properly, in my opinion. In my case, as a biker who has to open-carry for legality and sometimes rides hours in the rain, stainless has a LOT of appeal.

In a folder, it's too hard to keep the pivot area clean.

The other thing is food prep...silicon steaks or whatever doesn't sound like a good thing.

Jim
 
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