Do You Own a ZDP189 Cutlery?

[KenHash]

My Tojiro DP Nakiri arrived in the mail today. Inside was a small pamphlet of Care & Maintenance instructions, written in both Japanese and English. Here it is:

Ack. Not sure why the photo link isn't working.
Anyway, here's just some of the word-for-word verbatim among the list of things NOT to do to the knife (written in broken English) in the pamphlet that came with the knife:

• Please not use knife on hard material like steel or stone.
• Please not use knife for can opener or tag opener.
• Please not roast knife or keep it near to fire. It would cause burn or bad sharpness of knife.
• Please cut frozen food after melt it perfectly.

Had I seen such a bizarre list of use & care instructions prior to I became a member here, I would have laughed at such ridiculous list. Only after having seen and heard of others' mistreatment of their knives did it put things in perspective. Frankly, I am not sure why others would treat their knives in such manner, but I guess not everyone treats their tools with respect that they deserve.

I have a Tojiro DP Nakiri bought in 2003. Wife uses it heavily and daily. I have sharpened it countless times and now with thinning behind te edge, it cuts better than when it was new. In 17 years of constant use had one very small chip which sharpened out easily.

I had sort of hoped that I could get a Aogami Super or Powder steel Nakiri, but only when this DP was gone. But the way it continues to perform I suspect I may never have a chance to replace it.

Yes. the necessary use warnings to keep users from doing ridiculous things with their knives then expecting the manufacturer to cover repairs/replacement.

 

[-Kiku-]

I have a Tojiro DP Nakiri bought in 2003. Wife uses it heavily and daily. I have sharpened it countless times and now with thinning behind te edge, it cuts better than when it was new. In 17 years of constant use had one very small chip which sharpened out easily.

I bought Tojiro DP Nakiri based on lot of positive feedback from its users. I also bought Tanaquo 165mm Santoku (SRS15) and JCK Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan 180mm Nakiri (ZDP-189). The latter two are absolutely stunning in appearance with perfect geometry (or close to it). I am hoping these knives will last me a lifetime.

 

[-Kiku-]

Hello, folks. Here's a quick follow-up:

After nearly a year of owning and using various brands of Japanese kitchen knives, they are still going strong with no problems whatsoever.

Nearly a year ago, I threw out most of my old crappy German knives in favor of quality Japanese cutlery. (Relax, everyone. I am -NOT- dissing German knives. I am, however, saying the knives I owned until a year ago just so happened to be old, crappy, and cheap brands.) The new knives varied in quality and price from an $80 Tojiro all the way to $800 Sukenari ZDP189 Kiritsuke. The blade materials also varied from relatively cheap clad stainless steels such as those used in Tojiro to R2 and ZDP189. None of my kitchen knives are traditional high-carbon steels. Upon purchase, I had all of my new knives freehand sharpened on whetstones by a professional sharpener. And I have not had them sharpened since.

After nearly a year of careful daily use in my home kitchen, the knives still cut well with no visible signs of chipping (at least with a naked eye and even under the Zeiss D40 jewelers magnifier (10x mag).)

One of my biggest concerns from a year ago was the long-term durability (such as chipping of the blade) of exotic stainless steel such as ZDP189. Now I know the answer after nearly a year of firsthand experience with these knives. And I couldn't be happier.

For those of you who are considering an investment in high-end Japanese cutlery made of exotic stainless steel, but are concerned about chipping, you can allay your fears as long as you are careful with use and maintenance. Never use the knives for anything other than what they're intended. Knives are tools. And as with any tools, treat them well and they'll serve you well in return for a very long time.

 

[gooeytek]

Have you run into any issues with maintenance? Also, what is your preferred sharpening/touchup method for these?

 

[-Kiku-]

No maintenance issues.

When I buy meat, I always buy them boneless so that I don't have to do any heavy-duty chopping. As for vegetables, the toughest vegetables I worked with were Korean/Japanese daikons and giant carrots. When I chop and slice, I do so with minimal force and motion so that the blade edge doesn't strike nor drag against the surface of the board as much.

I am careful not to scoop with the edge of my blades when I move chopped & diced meats and vegetables from the cutting board into pots and pans. Often I find that it's easier to move the cutting board to the stovetop to slide/push the chopped & diced items with my hand into the pots and pans.

Almost always, I rinse the knives clean after use, wipe them down, and let them air-dry. Several times, I forgot to clean my knives afterwards, and didn't find out until the next day. Despite such carelessness, my knives are still fine. No pitting, no rust.

I haven't learned to sharpen my own knives, yet. I don't even use honing rods, nor strops. And I most definitely do not use one of those V-shaped pull-through sharpeners. Despite the fact that it's been nearly a year since I've had them sharpened, they still cut well. This may have a lot to do with the fact that I am very gentle with all of my knives so as to minimize wear and tear. Also, the high hardness of the blade materials (61-65 HRC) probably has a lot to do with it, too.

 

[hank_rearden]

My first post in the kitchen knife forum! Just this tangential experience. I tried out nearly all my EDC pocket knives for kitchen use. And I'm a special fan of zdp-189. I own two or three zdps at any given time. Yes the zdp is great for kitchen use ONLY because it sharpens to stupid sharpness. More important to me is blade AND handle geometry. A well-crafted 1095 blade will probably serve me better.

And you know what? It's in the kitchen where I realized that so-called "super steels" aren't all they're cracked up to be. Never mind all those blade retention tests. They're misleading. It takes only a few slices on animal matter to dull a sharp knife. The edge gets wrapped up with fat, tissue, and fiber. It gets worse as the handle also gets soiled and your grip suffers. You have to touch it up with a rod when that happens, or go to your stone or strop. If you slice a half-pound sirloin into stroganoff strips your $400-dollar hair splitter will get dull. If you slice 20 thin slices from a leg of ham, your champion slicer will get dull. If you try to pry apart anything bigger than a chicken thigh bone from its joint you risk chipping a thin blade.

 

[David Mary]

I had a Spyderco Dragonfly in ZDP-189. I reground it to a wharncliffe, and made it thinner behind the edge. It was a laser. I did not enjoy sharpening it, and did not use it hard for fear of the brittle reputation the steel has from some people. I traded it after only a few months of ownership. I like simpler steels that are easier to bring to screaming sharp in less time, even if I have to sharpen more often.

ETA: I just realized this is not what was asked. Apologies.

 

[tiguy7]

The Shapton Glass Al2O3 stones are considerably harder than ZDP-189 at 67HRC. I have no problems sharpening ZDP on them or the Spyderco Sharpmaker.

 

[-Kiku-]

I had a Spyderco Dragonfly in ZDP-189. I reground it to a wharncliffe, and made it thinner behind the edge. It was a laser. I did not enjoy sharpening it, and did not use it hard for fear of the brittle reputation the steel has from some people. I traded it after only a few months of ownership. I like simpler steels that are easier to bring to screaming sharp in less time, even if I have to sharpen more often.

I, too, have the ZDP189 Dragonfly. I love it! It's the only folding knife I own as I'm more into fixed-blades than folders.
Dragonfly is my go-to knife whenever letters, big envelopes, cardboard, and ropes need to be cut. I am always careful to wipe off any residues or adhesives on the blade afterward. After more than a year of ownership, the DZDP189 Dragonfly still cuts almost like a razor. No sign of chipping.

The Shapton Glass Al2O3 stones are considerably harder than ZDP-189 at 67HRC. I have no problems sharpening ZDP on them or the Spyderco Sharpmaker.

Good to know! I also asked other knife sharpeners and it seems the general consensus is that ZDP189 seems to sharpen better on ceramics than diamond plates. Something about diamond plates leaving unsightly large scratch marks...

In any case, this will give me a better idea of which stones to order if and when I choose to go with Wicked Edge (WE130) guided sharpening system. Currently undecided between WE130 and Tormek T-8. But that's another topic for another thread.

 

[David Mary]

I also asked other knife sharpeners and it seems the general consensus is that ZDP189 seems to sharpen better on ceramics than diamond plates. Something about diamond plates leaving unsightly large scratch marks...

Hmmm.... could also be something to do with grit selection...?

 

[-Kiku-]

Hmmm.... could also be something to do with grit selection...?

My understanding, however incomplete and flawed as it may be, is that it has more to do with the morphology of diamond particles. While the majority of the embedded abrasive particles are oval in shape more or less, quite a few of them can also be elongates. When larger particles take on such shape, the result is often a deep gash on the abrading target. When an elongate abrasive particle in a ceramic stone makes contact with the target surface, it starts to abrade that surface while such action also wears out the ceramic particle as well. Diamond particles, on the other hand, not so much.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I think possibly people are giving cookie cutter recommendations based off what the community holds as the golden standard, not knives they personally use on a daily basis themselves? I can't see reason for hostility otherwise, because anybody should easily be able to tell you the reasons they recommend something, otherwise why are you even recommending it at all?

 

[-Kiku-]

...should easily be able to tell you the reasons they recommend something, otherwise why are you even recommending it at all?

I agree with you. It makes sense to give recommendations based on one's own personal experience with the said product. But for some reason, not everyone shares the same mindset. Some asshats at KKF were offended when I asked a lot of probing questions about the reason(s) behind their recommendations. If personal preference was the main reason behind their recommendation, it's not that much of a trouble for them to state so, especially to a newb who just wants to learn and gain some valuable insight on the subject.

 

[Londinium Armoury]

I agree with you. It makes sense to give recommendations based on one's own personal experience with the said product. But for some reason, not everyone shares the same mindset. Some asshats at KKF were offended when I asked a lot of probing questions about the reason(s) behind their recommendations. If personal preference was the main reason behind their recommendation, it's not that much of a trouble for them to state so, especially to a newb who just wants to learn and gain some valuable insight on the subject.

Even when it comes to personal preference, surely the preference exists because of some tangible reason comparative to other options, like knife A has superior geometry, knife A has better balance, knife A has my favouriite steel, Knife A has better warranty and customer service etc etc etc.

 

[-Kiku-]

I also recall specifically asking in KKF for their recommendations (and reasons) for stainless steel nakiri. But did they? Nope. Instead of giving me what I asked for, they kept pushing high-carbon nakiri. And not just any high-carbon nakiri but one particular brand. Almost as if they had a vested self interest. When I mentioned other brands, they seemed annoyed...