Does a HIGH cost equate to BLADE PERFORMANCE??

Allen Blade · Dec 5, 1999

Hello,

I have talked to SOme People and collectors that seem to think that if you dont pay a Big dollar amount for a knife it can`t be as good as a Higher priced knife.

Except for the Import Junk, i find this to be completely Dumb. I have gotten into lots of hassels with makers that figured since i wasnt asking more for my knives that
somehow i was hurting there buisness because i was selling knives Leaps and bounds better in Quality at a fraction of the price.

I can see paying for Exotic materials, if you want somthing pretty to look at, but i mean to me id rather make a Bowie blade that in the cutomers eye is worth 500.00 according to whatelse is being made as far as fit and finish, and performanc but be able to sell it to them for $150.00 and at that i am still making a bit of money to pay bills.

I think alot of makers Ect.. think that if they charge more, the Precived Value to the customer is such that even if the Fit and finish isnt exact the Price asked make`s it worth it. kinda like :

"hey i bought this Folder/fixed blade
and the grind lines are alittle off , but thats ok it cost $1600.00 and such and so made it so it has to be good" now that is laughable!!

I dont want them to Buy the Damn thing because my names on it , i want them to buy it because its what they want and for the Value and performance they cant find better!!

And in the longrun if a makers name becomes associated with Value and Quality thats great, but i cant stand when a maker Produces excellent work to start with then after a name is built Slacks off on his product and charges more. that is in my opinion RIPPING off the consumer based on actuall Value. WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK???

And also the ploy of "my knives are in such demand that i charge more" is in my opinion wrong also.

The Market demand thingy is great but dont charge more just because you cant make them fast enough.

Thanks,
Allen Blade

UW Mitch · Dec 5, 1999

Allen,
Knife collecting is a form of art collecting. Even though you don't want people to
"buy the damn thing because my names on it"
the fact is they will buy it because of the name.
While I don't claim to know much about the bussiness of knifemaking, I can only assume that it follows basic supply and demand. If Maker A can charge $600 for his basic knives without effecting the demand, then that's what his price will be. If Maker B, one who produces similar high quality knives, can only charge $300 before his demand drops, then that will be his price.
One can see that there may be very little diffrence between the quality of the knives, but one "costs" more. I guess the question is, is it worth more? Well, yes, it is worth more, because people are willing to pay more. Is this fair to Maker B? No, and the truth is, I'd rather buy from Maker B, because I'd get more knife for my dollar.
I've recently decided (and this will likely change over time) that buying custom knives is just for the pleasure of owning a hand made knife. While I don't own any customs (yet) I don't think that a $500 custom will perform 5 times better than a quality production knife. When I do get into buying customs, I doubt that they will be my daily carry.
In an ideal world the quality of what you recieve would be directly proportional to the ammount you pay. It's dissapointing that our reality is that there are economic theories that are put into practice.
Sorry if I've strayed off topic. I guess my point is that I agree with you, but that's not the way it works in most cases. Maybe if we start spending our hard earned dollars with Maker B, then Maker A will be forced to drive his prices down as well.

~Mitch

P.S. do you have a website where I can see your work?

Phillip Jones · Dec 5, 1999

You have some valid points, Allen.

I have seen some high dollar knives that are not worth the cost. Made by reputable makers.

If a maker starts out with very high quality, aquires a reputation, starts charging more for his work and eventually lets his quality slide to keep up with demand then he is doing damage to both himself, the custom market, and all other custom makers.

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If a man can keep alert and imaginative, an error is a possibility, a chance at something new; to him, wandering and wondering are a part of the same process. He is most mistaken, most in error, whenever he quits exploring.

William Least Heat Moon

A T Barr · Dec 5, 1999

"Price has no meaning, without a measure of the quality" Deming

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A.T.
http://www.customknives.com
AKTI #476

Phillip Jones · Dec 5, 1999

Well put, A T.

Dr.Lathe · Dec 5, 1999

AT, You said it all!!!
Wasn't that J.G Juran though?????
Maybe I got my quality seminars mixed up!!!
Neil

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Update in process! New knives, pictures, Sheaths!!
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Meeting/5520/index.html

johno · Dec 5, 1999

But don't confuse quality, limited supply and high demand with just limited supply and high demand. I see the same in some of my other hobbies, like audio, where some of the same concerns abound. Are $5,000 worth of cables made from exotic materials and using esoteric (typically bogus) design criteria worth it ? To someone who BELIEVES and who is willing to pay, sure. Some designs prove to be good and eventually end up being high priced classics which hold their value for long periods of time, and others end up being over priced either because the designs didn't look that good after all with the benfit of some hindsight, and/or because the market ended up being basically speculative and the pyramid scheme finally fell apart. Once people start making magical claims for an object that is worshipped by a cult, buyer beware.

JoHnYKwSt · Dec 5, 1999

I agree whole heartedly with Allen. Some very good points. However, I don't have any problem with makers raising the price of their knives because of demand. That is just the way the world works.

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Johnny
[]xxxxxx[]=============>

E C · Dec 5, 1999

Allen, I agree but it may depend on which side you are coming at the purchase from. To borrow mitch's example, I would buy my knife from maker B a great knife that is going to be used, for less money than maker A's knife. If I was collecting or investing in knives I might pay extra for a makers name knowing that because of his name the price will continue to rise, making it a better investment. Either way if I spent $1600 (or even a LOT less) on a flawed knife I would raise that with the maker and hopefully he would take care of it.

Of course the best scenario would be that I bought maker B's knife and he became a maker A over time.

Reading that over it got a little confusing for me. Hopefully it reads better for you. Please refer to UW Mitch's post to clarify.

Thanks Mitch.

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Pete
"Mishaps are like knives, that either serve us or cut us, as we grasp them by the blade or the handle."

PhilL · Dec 5, 1999

Johnny, you took the words right out of my mouth.
Allen, I'd like to elaborate. I'm buying my first Custom in Jan., I saw this man's work at the NYCKS, in Nov. My oppinion, he's underpriced, he doesn't agree. Great! Now, if over the next couple of years, if he raises his prices, I have no problem with that. He's probably busier, probably gotten better, bigger shop more equipment, If he's still in my price range, I'll still buy. If he's out of my price range, what has that done for the value of the knives I already own?
Now, I'll also be looking for a Bowie knife, like a Randall Smithsonian or Confederate, there around $500 each. If you can make them both for $300, let's talk. Maybe, you can do a Dagger for me at the same time.
My question is, after a certain point, don't you think you're selling yourself short?
I would love to see a sample of your work.

Allen Blade · Dec 5, 1999

Hello,

Thanks to all that have responded so far,

I might have came at this at another angle,
myself I am a full time maker, I have no other Job. and I also have 3 kids and a wife ,,who doesnt work. So I guess one factor to consider is that I price my knives at the prices I usally sell them at, is to assure that I can sell everything I make. When I first started making knives I did mostly Artsy type knives with Lost wax castings Ect.. ect..but To sell such knives required the right type of person to buy them.

I Could raise my prices and still be alittle under the average, for the same type and quality of knife offered elswhere.

I know there are some Full-Time makers out there who are retired, living on there investments,ect.. or also have a Spouse who contributes substaintially to the income.

This Type of maker can afford to Ask Big money and Sit on the knife until somone thinks its worth the price,,, i dont have this kind of Luxury.

I to have raised my Prices somewhat,but only to the point where it had effected me Buying materials because the material prices went up.

I just could never see myself saying ,
well guys since i am selling X model knife and it is so popular,,to get one now is going to Cost you 500.00 instead of 150.00 and there is a possibility that when its finished the price will be higher yet so you will owe me more than you do now. Kinda weird
if ya ask me. I know that thats the way it is,,but isnt there a Greed Factor or an EGO thing going on then.

I have seen a maker who has a 20 yr back log
probably one of the most famous bladesmiths in the world, and gets BIG BIG bucks for his work, and to look at it up close its is Very Rough, un-evenly ground,, Bad solder joints. ect..ect...and i always ask myself WHY?

Maybe i am Ignorant or just a bad Buisnessman, but i would Rather sell 6 knives for 100.00 that were As close to perfect as i can make them ,than a 600.00 Knife because of my name that had Flaws that could have been corrected.

Im working on a web site for those who asked and on getting some photos done,but without a scanner of my own its tough to finish a knife and keep it around a few days for photos when it can be sold with a phone call. I am buying a scanner so i can scan each knife as its completed,, problem solved.

heck altleast i can still afford TOP RAMEN!!!

Thanks for the input,

Allen Blade

Paracelsus · Dec 5, 1999

I agree with UW Mitch. I buy hand-made knives because I think they represent Art. Allen Blade asked the question "does high cost equate to blade performance?" My answer is "I don't think so, at least not entirely". In fact, I think many production knives (e.g. Marbles and Fallkniven) approach the performance of many custom makers' work. But I don't buy a custom knife based solely on performance. I am buying Art.

I certainly agree that one should expect something approaching perfection in craftsmanship when paying high dollar figures for the work of well-known makers. It is sad to hear that some makers are trading their reputation for shoddy workmanship. I do not buy those kinds of pieces. I like the work of unknown makers who make relatively little for their work, and I like the work of some well known makers who get a lot of money for their work.
There is nothing more satisfying than buying a handmade knife for little money that performs well and is very well made. But sometimes paying for the work of a very good well known maker makes sense too.

I collect handmade forged fixed blade knives because I like them. I don't buy $1200 gentleman's folders because I can't afford to use them. So I won't enjoy them the way I want to. I doubt very strongly that any of these will perform any better than many much less expensive knives. But I will buy an expensive folder someday, just because I like the artistry and materials.

I hope that Allen's work gets better and better and that the public starts to recognize that fact. I am sure he would be glad to accept more money for his time. And if there is a great demand for his work, I hope he never compromises his workmanship to meet that demand (And I'm sure he won't from the comments he made).

I think the question is the problem for me. I don't pay more entirely for performance alone. I pay for something different, something unique, and something with Artistry.

Paracelsus

PhilL · Dec 5, 1999

Allen,
If I bought a knife from you this year for $150, and next year that same knife was $500, I would have a problem, I would say wow, Allen just got hot, mabybe to rich for my blood. If however you went from $150 to $175 or $200, and I knew your quality was worth $500, isn't that still a good deal for both of us? If next year you were at $250 or $300,
I for one would not complain. In fact I would feel pretty good about the whole idea of working with you in the first place. Does that sound reasonable to you?

Allen Blade · Dec 6, 1999

Hello,

yep you guys make some valid points that i didnt consider, i appreciate the input.

Thanks ,

Allen Blade

UW Mitch · Dec 6, 1999

Allen,
Maybe your "non-bussinessman" perspective is due to the fact that you have INTEGRITY. I think that you exemplify the concept of a craftsperson.
You wrote:
"i would Rather sell 6 knives for 100.00 that were As close to perfect as i can make them ,than a 600.00 Knife because of my name..."
If I were a knifemaker, I would feel the same way. When you turn into the maker that would rather crank out poorly made $600 knives just because you had high demand, you have lost focus of what knifemaking (and art in general is about). When artist become this way, they have sold themselves out, and sold their craft out. I think it's a matter of PRIDE, and I would rather pay for a knife with great craftsmanship than a knife by a famous maker who didn't care about the knife, or me (the customer).

Good luck on you website, let us know when it's up...but I fear once you put it up, everyone will see your great work, put in their orders, get you back logged for years, drive your prices up, and your quality down...ahhhh I'm going crazy.

Well, actually I'm pretty sure that horrible scenario won't occur. All the best with your webdesigning.

~Mitch

Cliff Stamp · Dec 6, 1999

While cost doesn't guarantee better performance, in general it is correlated rather strongly to it. Specific to knife makers I don't mind paying a fair amount to an individual who has spent years refining his skills and knowledge. This assumes of course his blades have changed in a positive way because of what he has learned. If he is still making them the same way he was 10 years ago I don't see much a a reason to pay any more for them.

Lets say for example Allen that in the next two years you refine the way you heat treat your 5160 (or whatever) so as to give better performance in the strength/toughness of the steel, say 25 %. You then alter your grinds to take account of this and end up with a more durable blade that cuts better. It would have taken you much experimentation (time) to get this information and apply it. I think it would only be fair for those buying your work to realize this and expect to pay you for it.

-Cliff

Scarman · Dec 6, 1999

I don't believe blade performance necessitates high cost or vice versa.
I have only purchased one expensive(to me) knife in my life(Sebenza) and that was based on all I had read and heard about it as well as the talks I have had with Chris, Anne and others. Before then I could never see myself spending more than a 'C' note on any particular folder. I do wish to state that in this case the knife was worth the price I paid. Not just because it is an awesome knife, but because of the customer service backing it up.
Would I spend that much on a folder again? Perhaps for an Apogee but no other folders in that price range truly catch my eye.
Nor have I found many fixed blades I would spend alot on $$ on(except a Battle Mistress and definately a Project 1).
I have spoken with Allen and he strikes me as a very sincere man who loves his profession and has a passion for delivering the finest quality he can for a "VERY" reasonable price. Totally unlike other experiences I have had.
JMHO

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The vague and tenuous hope that GOD is too kind to punish the ungodly has become a deadly opiate for the conscience of millions.

*A. W. Tozer

2 Cor 5:10

db · Dec 6, 1999

I think the real question may be what is the market you are after? Do you want to sell the best user knife you can make, or do you want ssell an investment knife? I believe you the maker can make alot more money selling a great value user knife. Now if you really don't want to work very much start thinking about getting into the investment mode. Slowly start raising the investment value of your knives for your customers.

Marion David Poff · Dec 7, 1999

I am hoping that his prices do not go up too much, I have a whole slew of knives I am planning on having made.

Just wait 'til you guys see what Allen and and I am working on.

A Fighting/Field Kitchen Knife. Medium and Large

A Modern Barong. Medium and Large

A Modern Golock

A Field Bowie

A Kukri Bowie

A Modern Bolo

And more.....

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Marion David Poff aka Eye mdpoff@hotmail.com
Coeur D'Alene, ID
http://www.geocities.com/mdpoff

An interesting business oppurtunity... http://www.geocities.com/selouss

"We will either find a way, or make one." Hannibal, 210 B.C.

Ebbtide · Dec 7, 1999

Why not keep doing what you are doing & put aside some time, each week, to work on a high level piece (Exotic materials, filework etc.) to showcase your talents. When you get your web site up, you can say "Here is what I am doing" & also "Here is what I am capable of doing, if a customer wants to spend the extra money.

Just my 2¢

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Can it core a apple?