Does anybody else think the CT saddle axe should have a longer handle ?

Hickory n steel said:
I think it's very noticeable.
The 6" I added makes a huge difference , and the 1lb double bit hatchet is drastically smaller and lighter to carry than the stock CT saddle axe.
There's clearly a good reason why DB hatchets have pretty much always been properly small.
I honestly when it comes to use and practicality, I'd probably much rather have the CT that I hung as a small cruiser than the 1lb DB hatchet.
The DB hatchets or " saddle cruisers " are definitely cool and they are useful, but a single bit hatchet is the standard for good reason.
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Note that I didn't say it wasn't noticeable -- I said that the difference in head weight/size doesn't make a major functional difference for most circumstances. That is to say, in any circumstance where you had equal handle length, having one head vs the other wouldn't have a huge impact on whether or not you were able to effectively accomplish the job in front of you. That there are circumstances where there are efficiency gains, but few where there's a true application suitability difference where one works and the other does not. There is so much functional overlap between the two heads that when all else is held equal there are mostly only efficiency gains from one vs. the other that are determined by specific context of use and they may be used interchangeably of one another.
 
transmaster said:
What is not to understand: "Except for the larger head, and a longer handle" ?
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Because just being a single handed DB doesn't really make it the same design and they didn't call it a Nessmuk.

I get that the Norlund saddle cruiser is extremely desirable because Nessmuk carried a DB hatchet and they're the most common vintage option, but while they are responsible for the current popularization and likely most widespread use of this nomenclature I do also believe theres likely some historical precedent involved with the design of this CT saddle axe.
Saddle axes were absolutely a thing at one time after all, but I don't know for sure about this particular size because in my searching on the internet information has been quite scarce.
The length seems quite poor for general use ,but potentially very handy for single handed trail blazing on a horse and that fits with the historical context of saddle axes.
I've seen no catalog/advert scans for any other hatchet length 2lb cruisers like this, but I may have seen a couple examples.
the 1st is a Plumb that I encountered for sale at a flea market 15 years ago, the other is a DB hatchet in the movie Where the red fern grows which really stood out as looking fairly large for a hatchet.
That could have been made up to add screen presence, and the movie is too sad for me to watch again so I'll never know.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
Note that I didn't say it wasn't noticeable -- I said that the difference in head weight/size doesn't make a major functional difference for most circumstances. That is to say, in any circumstance where you had equal handle length, having one head vs the other wouldn't have a huge impact on whether or not you were able to effectively accomplish the job in front of you. That there are circumstances where there are efficiency gains, but few where there's a true application suitability difference where one works and the other does not. There is so much functional overlap between the two heads that when all else is held equal there are mostly only efficiency gains from one vs. the other that are determined by specific context of use and they may be used interchangeably of one another.
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Same handle lengths, or head weights ?
I think the 1lb vs 2lb is quite a major difference, but agree that an extra 6" doesn't outright make or break the same weight tool.

You probably know better than I do, but if presented with 3 options I'd expect most people to either want a smaller 1lb DB hatchet or jump up to 20"-22" for the 2lb CT.
If it were just the stock CT vs say the Imicasa/marbles ( if consistently good ) I could see people choosing either, one is very lightweight to carry / swing while the other is less so but more capable.
Throw a 20"-22" hung CT in the mix and I see very few people choosing the stock CT, if you wanted the 2lb of cutting power who wouldn't want an extra 6"-8" of efficiency and those who just thought 2lb was too much for 1 handed use wouldn't hesitate to take a 2 handed version.

I get what you're saying though, as it comes with no other alternative options most people have probably been perfectly fine with the CT saddle axe as it comes.
Since they're discontinued and my whole point with this thread is what could have been, I am comparing the stock CT to what I view as superior
I'm not dumping on CT or anything because i thought they screwd the pooch on the handle length, but they always seemed to sell out and I've found nobody else having replaced the handle.
Even though they had to be discontinued, they were a bigger success than I expected.
 
Hickory n steel said:
Same handle lengths, or head weights ?
I think the 1lb vs 2lb is quite a major difference, but agree that an extra 6" doesn't outright make or break the same weight tool.

You probably know better than I do, but if presented with 3 options I'd expect most people to either want a smaller 1lb DB hatchet or jump up to 20"-22" for the 2lb CT.
If it were just the stock CT vs say the Imicasa/marbles ( if consistently good ) I could see people choosing either, one is very lightweight to carry / swing while the other is less so but more capable.
Throw a 20"-22" hung CT in the mix and I see very few people choosing the stock CT, if you wanted the 2lb of cutting power who wouldn't want an extra 6"-8" of efficiency and those who just thought 2lb was too much for 1 handed use wouldn't hesitate to take a 2 handed version.

I get what you're saying though, as it comes with no other alternative options most people have probably been perfectly fine with the CT saddle axe as it comes.
Since they're discontinued and my whole point with this thread is what could have been, I am comparing the stock CT to what I view as superior
I'm not dumping on CT or anything because i thought they screwd the pooch on the handle length, but they always seemed to sell out and I've found nobody else having replaced the handle.
Even though they had to be discontinued, they were a bigger success than I expected.
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Same handle lengths, NOT head weights. One is double the head weight of the other but 2lb is still very manageable even one-handed and the handle size has a larger impact on task suitability than 1lb head weight difference in this case. There would be some tasks on a given handle length the lighter head would be better for and some the heavier head would be better for, but the tasks that they were suited for in a broader sense would more or less be a near (not perfect) 1:1 overlap and could be substituted for one another in a pinch without causing severe issues.
 
I always wanted a saddle cruiser because they bring back memories of my uncle packing one on wilderness packing trips.
Can't imagine actually swinging from from horse back, it's a camp hatchet.

Some day I will find one.
 
You should never swing anything from horse back. The horse will likely blow up and then it's rodeo time, with a sharp axe in your hand. Not good for you or the horse or the mule string behind you.
 
Old Axeman said:
You should never swing anything from horse back. The horse will likely blow up and then it's rodeo time, with a sharp axe in your hand. Not good for you or the horse or the mule string behind you.
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various types of cavalry did such things for centuries in combat, not to mention firing pistols from horseback.
I suppose the difference would be whether the horse was trained to be okay with such a thing .

I don't actually know how saddle cruisers blazed trails but I seem to remember something about some guys who would pull up next to a tree and quickly blaze their tree with a couple quick chops.
 
First, A lot of people in this world will do whatever they want, just because they can. And Hollywood does not care if it ever gets things right. In my life time, and learning from my grandfather, I never saw or heard of a timber cruiser marking trees from horseback. It was always done on foot, and that is how I have always cruised timber. You can not get close enough on horseback to mark a lot of the trees you need to mark with a axe. What we did was carry the axe strapped to the saddle until we reached the area, dismount and secure your pony, cruise the area and mark the perimeter trees or just the trees to be felled, strap the axe back to the saddle, remount and ride to the next area to be cruised.

As some of us know, Combat is a whole different situation.
 
Old Axeman said:
First, A lot of people in this world will do whatever they want, just because they can. And Hollywood does not care if it ever gets things right. In my life time, and learning from my grandfather, I never saw or heard of a timber cruiser marking trees from horseback. It was always done on foot, and that is how I have always cruised timber. You can not get close enough on horseback to mark a lot of the trees you need to mark with a axe. What we did was carry the axe strapped to the saddle until we reached the area, dismount and secure your pony, cruise the area and mark the perimeter trees or just the trees to be felled, strap the axe back to the saddle, remount and ride to the next area to be cruised.

As some of us know, Combat is a whole different situation.
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You would certainly know much better than I do and I don't doubt that it wasn't a common practice if ever really done at all.
 
Trivia, for what it's worth. The US Army literally wrote the book on horses and mules. Mules have a unfair reputation as stubborn ( smart is mistaken with stubborn). Back in the 1990's the U.S. Forest Service chief mule packer (a friend and neighbor) came on a old Army Cavalry manual, with drawings, of how to cut the mules tails so you could tell at a glance what type of personality and behavior each mule had. Too bad the Army has forgotten almost everything they knew about horses and mules.
Also, too bad you can not do that with the human animal !
 
Old Axeman said:
Trivia, for what it's worth. The US Army literally wrote the book on horses and mules. Mules have a unfair reputation as stubborn ( smart is mistaken with stubborn). Back in the 1990's the U.S. Forest Service chief mule packer (a friend and neighbor) came on a old Army Cavalry manual, with drawings, of how to cut the mules tails so you could tell at a glance what type of personality and behavior each mule had. Too bad the Army has forgotten almost everything they knew about horses and mules.
Also, too bad you can not do that with the human animal !
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That would be an interesting read, it's a shame when knowledge gets lost.
 
Old Axeman said:
Trivia, for what it's worth. The US Army literally wrote the book on horses and mules. Mules have a unfair reputation as stubborn ( smart is mistaken with stubborn). Back in the 1990's the U.S. Forest Service chief mule packer (a friend and neighbor) came on a old Army Cavalry manual, with drawings, of how to cut the mules tails so you could tell at a glance what type of personality and behavior each mule had. Too bad the Army has forgotten almost everything they knew about horses and mules.
Also, too bad you can not do that with the human animal !
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Did it have to do with mule training?
https://horsenetwork.com/2023/08/random-mule-facts/
291096532_1368571156985213_4468293070994964248_n.jpg
 
crbn- Yes, you found it ! My friend Bob (USFS mule packer) said that the tail cutting system could tell you almost everything you needed to know about a unfamiliar mule at a glance. Bob was also one of the only packers I ever knew that rode a large mule instead of a saddle horse. It is also common knowledge that the mules get their intelligence from the donkey half not the horse half. I still have a mental image of Bob, on his mule Gracie, with his True Temper Flint Edge boys axe (26") tied to his saddle. We rode the Montana and Idaho Wilderness Areas together many times. Back in the 1990's we trained Navy Seal teams in wilderness skills. Bob did the horse and mule training, Warren Miller did the crosscut saw training, and I did the axe training. Then at night around the fire we would all swap stories (lies ?). I miss those days.
 
Old Axeman said:
crbn- Yes, you found it ! My friend Bob (USFS mule packer) said that the tail cutting system could tell you almost everything you needed to know about a unfamiliar mule at a glance. Bob was also one of the only packers I ever knew that rode a large mule instead of a saddle horse. It is also common knowledge that the mules get their intelligence from the donkey half not the horse half. I still have a mental image of Bob, on his mule Gracie, with his True Temper Flint Edge boys axe (26") tied to his saddle. We rode the Montana and Idaho Wilderness Areas together many times. Back in the 1990's we trained Navy Seal teams in wilderness skills. Bob did the horse and mule training, Warren Miller did the crosscut saw training, and I did the axe training. Then at night around the fire we would all swap stories (lies ?). I miss those days.
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I'm far from an expert but have owned and cared for both horses and donkeys in my day and my general observations on the big difference in the thought process between horses and donkeys is that horses receive a stimulus, react, and then process. Donkeys, by contrast, will receive a stimulus, process, then react. It's part of the reason why they get the bad rap as being "stubborn" because it's easy to get a horse to react to your stimulus but you have to convince donkeys of everything. They have to agree it's a good idea. You don't just tell 'em, you talk it over with 'em and that's why having an established bond with a donkey or mule is so important--the learned and earned trust that you give sound directions they feel comfortable doing.
 
Ben, you have it exactly ! Many years ago a old wilderness mule packer, who spent most of his life alone, hauling freight into the Bob Marshall Wilderness complex with a string of 9 mules took me with him on a pack trip so that I could inspect the Big Prairie Ranger Station for a upcoming log and roof restoration project. Gene explained it like this- "You tell a horse what you want him to do and he either does what you want or he does not. A mule ( or donkey) you tell him what you want him to do and then he needs to know the reason why he should do what you want before he will do anything."
Bernie
 
I don't have any experience with donkeys or mules but they sound quite alright to me, probably more sensible than their handlers in some cases.

Hickory n steel Hickory n steel - great thread.

I bought the Council Tool Saddle Axe a few years ago and yes, I purchased it to contribute to the "Nessmuk" trio that I wanted to try out at the time. When I got it in, I thought it a well made axe, but any time I tried to put it to more serious use than some casual chopping here and there, it always felt that something was off, or missing. My brother checked it out soon after and he immediately said, this needs a 20"-24" handle. I instantly agreed.

I like taking a boys axe on my trips as I find that I get far more use out of such than a hatchet and I'm willing to pack the little extra weight accordingly. A longer handle on this Saddle Axe would not be amiss and I think your rehang was not only nicely done, but also a great upgrade. If I didn't already have a massive pile of heads and such to rehang already, I would try and do the same for mine. For now, I'll keep it in a somewhat usable state until such a time that I have.... well, time.

bpYQV7o.jpg
 
I’m not sure of the weight on this Marbles but it’s a dandy. Anyone know what this might be for head weight?IMG_6175.jpeg
 
Old Axeman said:
It might just be the camera angle, but the Marbles looks to be hung upside-down.
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I though that when I got it, but it works fine and is solid. I got it new,so if it’s upside down,it was done at the marbles hatchet factory aka condor I think. Looks like condor quality.
 
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