Capt. Carl
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Both! And I like "bone stag" too!
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Does anyone else prefer Bone over Stag?
- Thread starter tomcrx
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I would have to say both.
These two (both first knives drawn at Bade 2008 and Blade 2004) just gotta have bone handles ain't no two ways about it.
Sometimes bone just adds that bit of warmth and nostalgia that no other material can do as well.
And that Pappy fellow sure has a bunch of nice stag
.
Bone just would not do for me on these two.
Reese and Mike Zscherny as well as a lot of others always seem to have some good stag too.
And then there are the pearls and ivories.
These two (both first knives drawn at Bade 2008 and Blade 2004) just gotta have bone handles ain't no two ways about it.
Sometimes bone just adds that bit of warmth and nostalgia that no other material can do as well.And that Pappy fellow sure has a bunch of nice stag
.Bone just would not do for me on these two.
Reese and Mike Zscherny as well as a lot of others always seem to have some good stag too.
And then there are the pearls and ivories.
I've got two Northwoods, a Senator and a Mini-Trapper, and the Sambar stag in each is rich and beautiful. Northwoods really does it right, as does Amherst Cutlery. Good stag is like ivory, the white part gets creamy and yellow over the years. It's grippy when wet and all natural.
I don't care for European stag, it looks dusty and dirty to me, none of the richness of Sambar.
I really like bone scales as well. Done right, they're every bit as beautiful to me as stag. I can't imagine not being able to have knives hafted in both stag and bone.
I don't care for European stag, it looks dusty and dirty to me, none of the richness of Sambar.
I really like bone scales as well. Done right, they're every bit as beautiful to me as stag. I can't imagine not being able to have knives hafted in both stag and bone.
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I like the dark stag like that which Ohta puts on his knives though I prefer bone. That isn't to say I wouldn't get a knife with some good looking stag on it.
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Sambar seems to have more figure/texture as well as color. I am not 100% sure, but I have heard that they shed the antlers too. Elk can look good, but I have also heard that there is more pith in the center so it might not be as stable as sambar.
I have seen a few knives with some German stag that were very nice looking too.
I have seen a few knives with some German stag that were very nice looking too.
BJE
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I tend to like good bone better than OK stag, but if both are done properly it would depend on the knife. Some knives don't look right with stag and sometimes bone is a little boring on certain patterns. I tend to buy more bone, it isn't as likely to have imperfections, is more widely available, and it is less expensive.
pappy1959
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As someone who has cut antler for Case, Buck, Queen and a score of other production and custom makers, I'll try to lend a little knowledge about the different kinds of antler.
First, nearly all, if not all, deer species lose their antler. The best antler for knife handles is shed antler because it is completely hardened and has as much natural color to it that it's going to have. And...........shed antler is a renewable resource. They grow new antlers every year and Bambi doesn't have to die for the sake of human vanity. If an antler is taken before they shed, it is not as calcified and is not generally as strong or has very much natural color. I have seen antler taken where it is light in weight and very very white, almost porcelain color. Not really good material for handles.
Secondly, most of the "natural" color on antler really isn't natural at all. Back in the day, all antler coming into the USA as raw material had to be disinfected. The method of choice was potassium permanganate. PP actually chemically changes the exterior of the antler and makes it a different color. It is not a dye, the color is a result of the disinfection stage of import/export. Most of what people think is natural color, including amber stag, is actually the reaction of the material to the PP. Amber stag occurs when the PP chemically "burns" the stag and changes it's color. Exhibition grade stag with the dark browns and purples is a result of an extreme reaction of the stag to the PP. Each horn will take on different characteristics when exposed to Potassium Permanganate. In the days of the old sheffield makers, stag was actually stained and varnished to give it color. That is done today to some extent, but only on a small scale.
The effectiveness of stag as a handle material has to do first with the species of deer, then the deer's diet.
The best species for antler material would be sambar stag. Sambar was available from India for many years, and cannot be exported from there any more. The best sambar stag in the world came from the area around Nagpur where the deer had the best diet. Sambar stag from the south of india was generally more pithy, less dense, and less colorful. Sambar stag is available from areas of Indonesia and New Zealand today. The antler from these areas is ok, but is not as dense or as textured as the India stag was. Much of what comes from Indonesia as sambar stag is actually russa deer and other related sub-species.
The next best species of deer for good antler as handle material is chital, or spotted deer. The antler is smaller than the sambar antler, but very similar in configuration with one brow tine, one coddle tine, a main beam and its spear point. The chital has nearly zero pith but also is much less textured than sambar. Most of what makers used to call sambar stag was actually chital. Spotted deer is available from all over the world including the United States, New Zealand and parts of Europe. it is not as much in demand because of its limited texture.
Red Deer is next on the list in terms of desirability. It has good texture and is fairly dense. It has lots of pith, so scales are usually cut from red deer antler. European stag, generally, is red deer. It does have more natural color on the outside, is more "white" on the inside but has less density than sambar or chital. It can, and will, warp on a knife. If dried properly and cut properly, it is a fine material. It does not have the deep grooves (generally) that sambar has. But it is a very good material.
Then there is the elk family which includes American and Canadian Elk, maral deer or mongolian stag. This is the material of last resort. Pithy and less dense than red deer, it has problems with color, texture and longevity as a handle material. It does take color nicely with PP. If dry, and if cut correctly, it can be a very nice looking material on the right knife. It does not have deep texture (generally) and is more porous than other species requiring stabilization in many cases.
Moose, mule deer, white tail deer and other species like these produce antler that have limited use as handle material. Scales from these antlers are rare. Textured rounds, crown sticks and tapers have to be hand-selected and many times must be stabilized becuase of the pith. Staining is common and some very fine handles are made from the antlers of these species. They are in the minority. The antler from these species is better suited as a craft antler and us commonly used to make furniture and all kinds of crafts.
I hope this information is helpful.
After spending nearly a decade of my life cutting hundreds of tons of this stuff, I've seen alot and the conclusions drawn above are a result of my extensive experience. Nothing is 100% and there are variations in all things in nature. I'm just attempting to give a general overview. Hope the information is of some value. I know alot about this material. Probably more than most people. Maybe sometime we can start a stag thread to talk about cutting, preparation, handling, milling, etc. etc. Until then, feel free to email me with questions. I don't claim to know it all. I do have alot of hands on experience and that's where I draw my conclusions from.
Thanks for reading.
Keep Care,
Pappy
First, nearly all, if not all, deer species lose their antler. The best antler for knife handles is shed antler because it is completely hardened and has as much natural color to it that it's going to have. And...........shed antler is a renewable resource. They grow new antlers every year and Bambi doesn't have to die for the sake of human vanity. If an antler is taken before they shed, it is not as calcified and is not generally as strong or has very much natural color. I have seen antler taken where it is light in weight and very very white, almost porcelain color. Not really good material for handles.
Secondly, most of the "natural" color on antler really isn't natural at all. Back in the day, all antler coming into the USA as raw material had to be disinfected. The method of choice was potassium permanganate. PP actually chemically changes the exterior of the antler and makes it a different color. It is not a dye, the color is a result of the disinfection stage of import/export. Most of what people think is natural color, including amber stag, is actually the reaction of the material to the PP. Amber stag occurs when the PP chemically "burns" the stag and changes it's color. Exhibition grade stag with the dark browns and purples is a result of an extreme reaction of the stag to the PP. Each horn will take on different characteristics when exposed to Potassium Permanganate. In the days of the old sheffield makers, stag was actually stained and varnished to give it color. That is done today to some extent, but only on a small scale.
The effectiveness of stag as a handle material has to do first with the species of deer, then the deer's diet.
The best species for antler material would be sambar stag. Sambar was available from India for many years, and cannot be exported from there any more. The best sambar stag in the world came from the area around Nagpur where the deer had the best diet. Sambar stag from the south of india was generally more pithy, less dense, and less colorful. Sambar stag is available from areas of Indonesia and New Zealand today. The antler from these areas is ok, but is not as dense or as textured as the India stag was. Much of what comes from Indonesia as sambar stag is actually russa deer and other related sub-species.
The next best species of deer for good antler as handle material is chital, or spotted deer. The antler is smaller than the sambar antler, but very similar in configuration with one brow tine, one coddle tine, a main beam and its spear point. The chital has nearly zero pith but also is much less textured than sambar. Most of what makers used to call sambar stag was actually chital. Spotted deer is available from all over the world including the United States, New Zealand and parts of Europe. it is not as much in demand because of its limited texture.
Red Deer is next on the list in terms of desirability. It has good texture and is fairly dense. It has lots of pith, so scales are usually cut from red deer antler. European stag, generally, is red deer. It does have more natural color on the outside, is more "white" on the inside but has less density than sambar or chital. It can, and will, warp on a knife. If dried properly and cut properly, it is a fine material. It does not have the deep grooves (generally) that sambar has. But it is a very good material.
Then there is the elk family which includes American and Canadian Elk, maral deer or mongolian stag. This is the material of last resort. Pithy and less dense than red deer, it has problems with color, texture and longevity as a handle material. It does take color nicely with PP. If dry, and if cut correctly, it can be a very nice looking material on the right knife. It does not have deep texture (generally) and is more porous than other species requiring stabilization in many cases.
Moose, mule deer, white tail deer and other species like these produce antler that have limited use as handle material. Scales from these antlers are rare. Textured rounds, crown sticks and tapers have to be hand-selected and many times must be stabilized becuase of the pith. Staining is common and some very fine handles are made from the antlers of these species. They are in the minority. The antler from these species is better suited as a craft antler and us commonly used to make furniture and all kinds of crafts.
I hope this information is helpful.
After spending nearly a decade of my life cutting hundreds of tons of this stuff, I've seen alot and the conclusions drawn above are a result of my extensive experience. Nothing is 100% and there are variations in all things in nature. I'm just attempting to give a general overview. Hope the information is of some value. I know alot about this material. Probably more than most people. Maybe sometime we can start a stag thread to talk about cutting, preparation, handling, milling, etc. etc. Until then, feel free to email me with questions. I don't claim to know it all. I do have alot of hands on experience and that's where I draw my conclusions from.
Thanks for reading.
Keep Care,
Pappy
Hi,
Thanks for your mini-treaties on antler Pappy! It answered a lot things I've wondered about the stuff but was afraid to ask.
The part about White Tail antler is interesting. I'm currently trying to re-scale a peanut with it. Thanks to your explanation I now understand what I'm seeing on the cut side. So far I've done everything wrong, antler isn't a shed and I don't know how I can stabilize it to prevent warp. The only thing I've got going for me is the scales are small so I need only the outside edge. Limiting the pith. Oh well, this is how we learn.
I would like to ask permission to copy and past your post into a text file for my own personal reference.
Thank You,
dalee
Thanks for your mini-treaties on antler Pappy! It answered a lot things I've wondered about the stuff but was afraid to ask.
The part about White Tail antler is interesting. I'm currently trying to re-scale a peanut with it. Thanks to your explanation I now understand what I'm seeing on the cut side. So far I've done everything wrong, antler isn't a shed and I don't know how I can stabilize it to prevent warp. The only thing I've got going for me is the scales are small so I need only the outside edge. Limiting the pith. Oh well, this is how we learn.
I would like to ask permission to copy and past your post into a text file for my own personal reference.
Thank You,
dalee
pappy1959
Banned
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- May 27, 2008
- Messages
- 433
I love stag...........done right and on the appropriate knife.
I love bone..............done right and on the right knife.
Natural handle materials are my preference on ANY knife, particularly a user.
Sorry to those of you who like the plastics and G-10 and micarta. They just don't do it for me at all.
Natural materials mature with age and use. Natural materials breathe and are more comfortable in the hand. They take on a patina and get better and better with age, and use. Natural materials develop a "character" all their own based on the use, the owner, age and care. I do believe that natural materials hold, or increase, their value better than any plastic.
That's my humble opinion, for what it's worth.
Keep Care,
Pappy
I love bone..............done right and on the right knife.
Natural handle materials are my preference on ANY knife, particularly a user.
Sorry to those of you who like the plastics and G-10 and micarta. They just don't do it for me at all.
Natural materials mature with age and use. Natural materials breathe and are more comfortable in the hand. They take on a patina and get better and better with age, and use. Natural materials develop a "character" all their own based on the use, the owner, age and care. I do believe that natural materials hold, or increase, their value better than any plastic.
That's my humble opinion, for what it's worth.
Keep Care,
Pappy
- Joined
- Nov 24, 1998
- Messages
- 993
I like GOOD STAG and GOOD BONE
Most production knives that are covered with stag have either burnt stag :thumbdn: or second cut stag :yawn:
Good stag: :thumbup: When done properly is perfection :thumbup:
Good Bone: :thumbup:
My same feeling. :thumbup:
I have always been a fan of well done Sambar stag and could take or leave bone handled knives.
I recently acquired from KSF a Canal Street Cutlery: Single Blade Half Moon Trapper Pocket Knife--14-4-CrMO--Amber Carved Stag Bone. This is bone done right and the nicest I have encountered, whoever does their carving/jigging is a true craftsman.
I recently acquired from KSF a Canal Street Cutlery: Single Blade Half Moon Trapper Pocket Knife--14-4-CrMO--Amber Carved Stag Bone. This is bone done right and the nicest I have encountered, whoever does their carving/jigging is a true craftsman.
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2009
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- 118
I like both, it depends on how it looks on the knife.
