Does anyone know how to use an undercutter/chainsaw axe?

Square_peg · Nov 9, 2015

BG_Farmer said:
Cool stuff, definitely a very specific tool! OP needs one of those early chainsaws ...

My dad had one similar to that. It was brutally heavy and he hated it worse than anything but a handsaw.

300Six said:
Imagine being able to saw trees down with relative ease and then having to resort back to handsaws in order to buck them into logs.

Gas powered buck saws (drag saws) had already been around for a long time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfmzBy7p-ao
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0R7Mtq2-p0

http://www.mendorailhistory.org/1_logging/drag_saws.htm

I've seen a few drag saws rusting away in barns around here.

300Six · Nov 10, 2015

Square_peg said:
Gas powered buck saws (drag saws) had already been around for a long time.
I've seen a few drag saws rusting away in barns around here.

Thank you for this. Operators tending these saws must have taken great care to support or raise the logs at the sawcut or else were very busy driving in wedges at the top of the cut, soon as they could, because a suddenly pinched blade must have wreaked havoc.

Sidehill Gouger · Nov 10, 2015

Many years ago as a forester I did a temporary hitch in a large timber company's fire hall. One day I was given the job of cleaning, sharpening and painting the heads of a few hundred Pulaski's. The head guy in the firehall came by and started laughing at one of the tools I had racked. Told me it was really an undercut axe for getting the wedge out of the tree when using those early chainsaws. Certainly wasn't something saw a lot of use for very long.

Twindog · Nov 11, 2015

I ran into this strange sale on the bay: an antique Warren undercutter axe.

I presume someone bent the rear blade for some reason.

trailtime · Nov 11, 2015

Sounds like a version of a technique I learned at at crosscut saw certification class I took last spring, only it was called a Bishop notch. Several horizontal kerfs were cut into the face at lessening distances, then chopped out. It would seem that the under bucker would break the pieces out (half rounds, third rounds, etc. Chopping them was pretty easy though. Just another old-timey technique to have in your hat when needed.

300Six · Nov 11, 2015

Twindog said:
I ran into this strange sale on the bay: an antique Warren undercutter axe.

I presume someone bent the rear blade for some reason.

Wouldn't be surprised if some thoughtful/dedicated/budget conscious municipal employee saw these kicking around collecting dust for years in a back room and had the claw end bent over on a bunch of them for convenient re-issue as manhole cover lifters.

Twindog · Nov 11, 2015

trailtime said:
Sounds like a version of a technique I learned at at crosscut saw certification class I took last spring, only it was called a Bishop notch. Several horizontal kerfs were cut into the face at lessening distances, then chopped out. It would seem that the under bucker would break the pieces out (half rounds, third rounds, etc. Chopping them was pretty easy though. Just another old-timey technique to have in your hat when needed.

So you'd chop the half-moon rounds out by chopping them from the side, rather than swinging up from the bottom?

Twindog · Nov 11, 2015

300Six said:
Wouldn't be surprised if some thoughtful/dedicated/budget conscious municipal employee saw these kicking around collecting dust for years in a back room and had the claw end bent over on a bunch of them for convenient re-issue as manhole cover lifters.

You're right. It is probably something like that. But I don't think it would be for manhole covers. If the manhole cover is stuck, you use a pick axe that fits into the finger hole. Apply leverage with the pick axe in place, tap the cover with a hammer and it pops right up. Had some old timers show me that back in the '70s. Of course, they waited a while to watch as the newbie nearly broke his back trying to pry the damn thing up.

trailtime · Nov 11, 2015

You'd chop the face cut down from the top, but with the kerfs cut, they pop out pretty easily. A good sharp saw cuts those kerfs pretty fast.

Twindog · Nov 11, 2015

trailtime said:
You'd chop the face cut down from the top, but with the kerfs cut, they pop out pretty easily. A good sharp saw cuts those kerfs pretty fast.

Thanks. Pretty interesting. Makes me want to try it with my Silky Katanaboy. Do the horizontal cuts give you any advantage over just sawing out a wedge? As Square Peg explained it, the first chainsaws could only be used for horizontal cuts, not for wedge cuts. But your hand saw can cut in any direction.

So I wonder how the undercutter axe was used. A regular axe will do what you describe. The rear blade on the undercutter axe seems like it needs to be used in either a sideways swing or an underhanded swing.

At first, I thought the underhanded swing would be perfect, because the angle of the swing would follow the face cut. Then from your photo, I thought a sideways swing would knock those sections out pretty fast, both by chopping and prying.

Square_peg · Nov 11, 2015

Undercutters were swung sideways. That bent one is most likely from abuse - using it as a pick in rocky dirt. I've bent several picks like that.

On the left it's Collins, Flint Edge, Flint Edge. The one that is hung is a Warren.

trailtime · Nov 11, 2015

Sawing at an angle with a crosscut saw becomes difficult as the angle increases, as you are ripping with a saw that's filed for crosscutting.

All the early generation chainsaws I've seen cut really wide kerfs, which would allow the tail piece of the undercutter to fit inside (I think). The under cutter could then pry out the half round without needing to chop it. At least that's how I visualize the earlier discussion. I have never used one.

Square_peg · Nov 11, 2015

Think big trees. 48" & larger trunks. You're not gonna chip off a 24" half-round by prying in the kerf.

longun · Nov 11, 2015

I would say that the axe was swung from the side, or horizontal with the ground. And why couldn't a square cut notch be made in the tree. And the back cut be made at the height of the notch. Somewhat like this --[

Steve Tall · Nov 11, 2015

Square_peg said:
Klenman has the answer. That article is an excerpt from 'Axe Makers of North America'...

A few more details from an article about Larry McPhail's collection of axes:

McPhail also found an undercutter ax in Klenman's collection. It's one of 50 prototypes made by the Walters Ax Company for Vancouver area loggers. It was specifically designed to knock out the notch left by the first Stihl chainsaws imported to the area in 1938.
"It was a short production ax, made from 1938 to 1955," McPhail says. "I feel really lucky to have one of the original 50."

https://www.farmshow.com/a_article.php?aid=21880

Square_peg · Nov 12, 2015

I've been meaning to get up there and see Larry's collection. One of these days.......

Steve Tall · Nov 12, 2015

About those Stihl chainsaws in 1938, the west coast loggers had a name for them: "Hitlers".
From this article with some interesting history: https://journals.lib.unb.ca/index.php/MCR/article/view/16942/23057

What the official Stihl history shows for their 1938 chainsaw, with 7 horsepower and weighing 81 pounds:

The two-man petrol-driven chainsaw has a light aluminium alloy cylinder with chrome-plated surface. The machine weighs "only" 37 kilograms with a power output of 7 HP.
http://www.stihl.com.au/static/geschichte/30er.htm

Some more history of the chainsaw:
http://www.waldwissen.net/lernen/forstgeschichte/wsl_geschichte_motorsaege/index_EN

Old Axeman · Jan 21, 2019

I dug up this old thread because someone recently showed a undercut axe. This was my experience with them in the 1950's & 60's. Lets start with the fact that in a logging show the fallers need to directionaly fell the trees to the best advantage for skidding or high lineing the sticks to the landing for hauling to the mill. With really large trees with a heavy lean or a lot of weight on the wrong side from where you need to lay the tree to facilitate skidding, changing the natural lay is difficult and dangerous. This is what we did (under my grandfather's supervision). Using a crosscut or chainsaw or Wright saw the technique was the same. After putting the front notch in the direction of the intended lay, start the back cut with a series of shallow horizontal kerfs like in trailtimes photo. Next use the undercutter's axe side to chop out as much waste as you could. Turn the undercutter around and use the adze side swinging horizontal to finish cleaning up the notch. This would leave you with a shallow back notch with a horizontal top and bottom. Put the saw back in this notch. Take TWO bell base screw jacks (commonly known as house jacks). Put the jacks in the notch behind the saw almost out to the bark edge. It is very important to use TWO jacks and place them on either side to form a V towards the exact direction of fall. Take up the jacks tight and then some. Start sawing to finish the back cut. Go slow and watch what is going on. Take one, or the other, or both jacks up if needed, just like you do with wedges. Word of caution--NEVER USE ONLY ONE JACK; NEVER USE HYDRAULIC JACKS.