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Does anyone know?

Discussion in 'Sword Discussion' started by Ccotten24, Dec 5, 2018.

  1. Ccotten24

    Ccotten24

    1
    Dec 5, 2018
    https://imgur.com/a/1BHLbRM[​IMG] My grandmother found this sword when she was a little girl. She found it in the wall of an abandoned house. Since she passed the sword fell in my hands.

    Does anyone know what time of sword, time period, etc.... this is?
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 1:13 PM
  2. Triton

    Triton Gold Member Gold Member

    Aug 8, 2000
    The picture is not showing. There are various tutorials on how to post pictures here.
     
  3. JJHollowman

    JJHollowman

    448
    Jul 16, 2016
    I'd venture to say it's a Knights of Pythias, Columbus, or Masonic sword. There are tons of similar examples on the web if you google those.
    The link worked for me: https://imgur.com/a/1BHLbRM
     
  4. Triton

    Triton Gold Member Gold Member

    Aug 8, 2000
    I can see them now. Agree it's a fraternal sword, it may well be the knights of Pythias or Columbus or... I've noticed that many fraternal organizations used these with various modifications to the insignia on them. I haven't seen the skull and bones motif before (and it looks oddly crude) but I don't really delve too deeply into these items. Value would be nominal I would think.
     
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  5. horseclover

    horseclover Basic Member Basic Member

    Nov 21, 2000
    Freemasons, most likely. I'll see if there is an example in the current bible but the era would be 1850s-1870s. Looks like a Philadelphia Horstmann&Sons assembly but it may not be marked to them, as they sold to other retailers. A peened assembly means it would be a chore to see the tang stamp. There were swords of that period that had cast guards in the form of the skull&bones and all associated with Freemasonry and more so the Scottish Rite Blue Lodge hierarchy. Possibly a lodge Tyler/tiler man at arms vs a Knights Templar.

    These forms with the Roman Centurion and plumed knight pommels started with US militia swords evolved from a mix of French 1st Empire pommels and English guards. By the end of the ACW, the general form adopted by many fraternal and military association groups. Personally, I would label this one as ACW period (1861-1865) but it might fall a little bit later. Was this found in one of the Confederate states? There are some Confederate Sons of America (veterans) and KKK swords using the iconography. Looks like there are enough stars to represent the 13 colonies, so I wouldn't immediately jump south.

    I promise to check the book

    Cheers
    GC

    Ok, I promised to look. No exact match there but the skull&bone guards I was thinking of are not necessarily of the Blue Lodge group (?) but still Scottish Rite. Most notably the Ancient and Accepted, and, Ancient Free and Accepted Freemasonry groups still under the Scottish Rite umbrella with degrees like any other group. I don't know these things entirely.

    An uncle just had a dinner presentation celebrating his 65 years of Freemasonry. Doing well at 90
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018 at 9:31 AM
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  6. horseclover

    horseclover Basic Member Basic Member

    Nov 21, 2000
    "Fun" searches and sites
    https://www.masonic-lodge-of-education.com/af-and-am-vs-f-and-am-states.html
    https://www.phoenixmasonry.org/

    One of the German made Ancient and Accepted swords
    https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/antique-masonic-aasr-32-degree-sword-1881418218

    Some of them with the helmet heads but less obvious crossed bones but also with a skull and bones in the center.
    [​IMG]

    Cheers
    GC

    I wanted to add that the skull and bones may go back to ancient stones marking old Scottish Templar graves and possibly the burial process themselves. Some feel only some of the corpse was transported home to Scotland from where the individual fell. Ie: leg femurs and skulls. Other think it may have been simply folding the individual up into a more or less fetal position with limbs crossed. Then there are simply many more modern stones bearing the memento mori.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2018 at 9:41 AM
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