Does consistency exist in Custom Knives...

Marion David Poff

Marion David Poff

Joined
Oct 8, 1998
Messages
5,403
In the "Whats the Forums Opinion of Mad Dogs" thread the issue of a sigificant sample was brought up.

Specifically, when speaking of Cliff Stamp testing the TUSK, it was pointed out that two(2) was too few a number to gain any real understanding of the performance of the Tusk, that one would have to test 30 of them.

That statement is a ground shaker for me.

I had believed that every knife that came out of a respected knife makers shop was of consistent quality and could stand on it's own feet and be judged based on it's performance, that said knife was the best the knifemaker could come up with. Or what are we spending our money on?

So what sort of failure rate should we expect from our favorite knifemaker, 10%, maybe 20%?

How much confidence can one have in the knife that just got delivered.

Note- I do not believe that there is even a 10% failure rate among delivered knives from respected makers. I believe that a quality maker can put out a quality knife day in and day out very consistently, and that the rare knife from a respected maker that is below acceptable levels is 99 out of 100 times not a fault of the maker.

I have brought this topic up, because there seems to be a significant faction that believes that custom makers are like rookie alchemists, some times they get it right, but be careful.

Note- This is not an attempt to tear down, denigrate, question or attack custom makers, though I will not be surprised if someone accuses me of that, again.

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Thank you,
Marion David Poff aka Eye, Cd'A ID, USA mdpoff@hotmail.com

Talonite Fire

"Many are blinded by name and reputation, few see the truth" Lao Tzu
 
Originally posted by Marion David Poff:
Note- This is not an attempt to tear down, denigrate, question or attack custom makers, though I will not be surprised if someone accuses me of that, again.
Click to expand...

MDP - I'm sure I'm not the only one who's noticed that you seem to post with a chip on your shoulder. If you start a post already looking for trouble, you're certain to find it. Why don't you try simply posting your question and seeing what the replys are. Although, once you gain a reputation, it's hard to shake it. JHMO.

As for your original question, I do think it's possible for custom makers to achieve a very high level of consistency in their knives (check out Kit Carson's knives), but even automated processes don't always put out 100% flawless products every single time. The key then becomes how well the maker reacts to a customer's problems. Some makers react very well (Kit and Darrel Ralph in my experience); others do not (witness Mad Dog's complete lack of skill in this area).



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Kelly

SenatorsPlace.com
AKTI Member #A000289

Deo Vindice


 
Hey Guys....

As far as consistency goes..

You have to remember that these knife makers are not machines. There will be differences in each blade.
This is a sign of "Hand Made" quality Vs. someone locking it into a CNC and running a program.

As far as knowing the difference from one to another as far as performance goes..99.999% of the people couldn't tell the difference.

Personally I like the fact that each knife is different in some way shape or form... That shows true hand Craftsmanship.

ttyle Eric...

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Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

 
Is knife-to-knife consistency possible? Hell yes!! Is it to be expected and demanded by customers? Again, YES!!
Speaking for myself, and, knowing what I say would be confirmed by those knifemakers I associate with, I can state categorically that WRT performance, heat treat (processing in general), grinding, etc. that I strive for absolute consistency from knife to knife in a given model.
As far as testing goes, you can't achieve a true statistical database with just one data point-the more you have, the truer the representation.
As to flawed knives getting out, well, that depends on the consistency of processing and quality control standards-like Rockwell testing, measurement of edge thickness, visual inspection and edge testing.
Now, I'm not saying that every knife of a given model I make is identical. Certainly not. But, the qualities that the blade has(sharpness, toughness, edge holding) should be darn close from knife to knife, even if there are visual differences in appearance.
How any knife stands up under hard use is a big variable-there are guys out there who could break an anvil !! That's why, except for initial sharpness (my trademark), I'm not going to go around bragging about what my knife will do-because I can't predict how someone else will use it(or abuse it).
IMHO, the best test of knives is TIME. Time will tell how good a knife really is, if there are folks out there using it. So far, for me, the reports have been good.
Consistency is where it's at!!!

RJ Martin
 
Marion, first off, MD ATAK and TUSK, pATAK and all the other standard knives are not Customs. They are manufactured knives like the Busse knives. They cost as much as many customs and some a lot more. At $900.00 a TUSK is above most customs in price and below them in quality, oh well. In any case, your question is a difference in opinion.

From an engineering point of view, failure testing is not done to a high number of parts in a line. For example(and I think I stated this one before) I remember load testing of a certain fighter aircrafts nose cone. The nose cone was subjected to 100% and 125% of the maximum expected loads for thousands of hours. Not all nose cones were tested for these loads but a good sampling was. Then there were several that were tested to failure. Several out of hundreds is a very small percentage. Failure testing does not require high numbers of samples because failure is usually considered way beyond any stresses imposed on the pieces during normal operation. If you translate this to knives, I think the same would apply, you don't need a lot to tell you about failure.

If I'm relying on my equipment to save my ass I expect it to work like it's supposed to 100% of the time. That's why I believe in Glock and H&K. But not everything works 100% of the time, so I double up on most of it.
 
I work very hard on cosistency and a 1% return rate is unacceptable, I think you will find the majority of good makers feel the same way. And like RJ said, some guys can break an anvil.

You cant take the results of one knifemakers product and one knife testers results and expect to come to a fair conclusion to which the whole custom knife industry is judged by, which you sorta said.

I edited this for you Tom!
smile.gif


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www.simonichknives.com

[This message has been edited by Rob Simonich (edited 04-22-2000).]
 
marion,

you going by a guy that breaks every knife he tests? jesus!

i think all good custom makers are consistent in finish, fit and quality! or are you talking about makers who have things cut out for them and are doing more of a production thing and prefer to get out just more knives?

i think this "faction" should learn more about good makers and remember to use a knife as a knife! not an axe or screwdriver or whatever else they can dream up to break it.
 
This may sound a little silly, but there are many times that I don't try for consistency. I don't know if I could make two knives absolutely identical if I wanted, since my whole process is done with the blade in my hand(s) so some variation is just going to happen. The truth is, each time I pick up a piece of steel and start cutting, I'm planning that it will be the best knife I ever made. Clearly not many end up there, but some do and that is why we improve. But if I didn't put a little reach into every knife, I'd get bored pretty quickly and hang it up.

Is the quality consistent? Sure, nothing leaves the shop unless it satisfies me first and my QC department second. BTW, I'm married to the QC department. She has become an outstanding judge of quality and has an unerring ability to detect my little weaknesses. Every knife I finish is left on the kitchen counter for when she gets home in the evening. Sometime before dinner, she will pick it up and spend anywhere from a minute to ten minutes studying it. We have a little code worked out that tells me if I pass or fail. Silence is the kiss of death. I haven't gotten that in quite awhile, but it keeps me on my toes anyway. If the knife is OK, she'll say something nice. (Wouldn't it be nice if all QC departments were that sensitive?)

Beyond that test, I agree with RJ completely. Time is a great test of a knife's quality as a tool. But it is also a great test of a custom knifemaker. Most of us get better, because we care.



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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
Marion :

two(2) was too few a number to gain any real understanding of the performance of the Tusk, that one would have to test 30 of them.
Click to expand...

It is completely false to suggest that you need a huge number of data points to estimate the mean behavior. The only time this is the case is if the variance in the population is huge relative to the mean otherwise the probability of you getting a skewed opinion is far too low. Of course if this is the case (huge variance) the blades are pretty much useless anyway as you could buy one be very satisfied with it and they the next one be in a completely different performance range.

To be more specific, lets assume that there are two makers, maker A puts out blades with a break point of 140 ft.lbs and an uncertainty of 10 ft.lbs, maker B on the other hand also quotes 140 ft.lbs but his blades performance have a lot of uncertainty say 50 fit.lbs. If you took 10 random blades from each you would get break points like this :


140. 141.
134. 108.
136. 121.
141. 143.
149. 185.
133. 107.
144. 160.
135. 113.
140. 139.
132. 102.

The first col is from maker A and is very consistent. If you tested two at random you would find that what maker A quoted break point (140) was reasonable. if you tested two of maker B's you could be very surprised.

This is the same with any aspect, cutting ability, edge retention etc., conclusion, if you need a large sample to judge a makers abilities on one particular blade style, avoid him as he doesn't know what he is doing anyway.

-Cliff
 
I've read all of the above posts with interest, and I must say, an amount of shock.
There is a huge difference in makers who produce custom/one of a kinds, and those who offer a production or semi-production knife. As to the issue of consistent quality, I agree strongly with Rob. No knifemaker who puts his or her name on a blade can afford to do anything but their best work ALL THE TIME. And taking into consideration that we are all human, there will certainly be flaws in anything we do, but if a flaw creates a problem, it is the makers duty to see that the problem is corrected and the deal made "right" with the customer. I make this statement with the idea in mind that I consider a person to be honest....until they give me reason to believe otherwise.
In current times, it seems we have blurred the line between a true craftsman, turning out a product from his/her heart and soul, and those who "produce" knives with $$$ in their eyes. And make no mistake, the money grubbers do exist, and many have found that by using the term "custom" knives to describe thier product, they increase profits. But what has also happened is that by doing so, they have degraded those who truly are craftsmen in the eyes of the public.
I'll climb down off the soap box now, and return to the shop. Take Care all,



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Ed Caffrey
"The Montana Bladesmith"
www.caffreyknives.com
 
Jerry :

This may sound a little silly, but there are many times that I don't try for consistency.
Click to expand...

The relevant question here is if the customer asked for it. To be specific Jerry, lets assume that a competent martial artist handled one of your bowies in shop and in fact you allowed him to do some cutting with it. Lets further assume that he was so impressed he asked you to make him one. Now how close can you get to the one he handled? Is it reasonable for him to expect one that has a performance so similar he cannot tell a difference between it and the first one he handled -or- should be expect differences in cutting ability, edge retention/durability, balance, ergonomics etc., to be immediately noticable?

-Cliff
 
If a maker looses the desire to always strive for consistent quality, they have probably lost interest in making knives all together anyway. At that point loosing customers would probably be a relief!!

My feeling is that once a maker has established a good reputation, every knife he makes has to live up TO that reputation. Call it consistency, quality, precision, attention to detail......WHATEVER
smile.gif


I had several forum members visit this weekend. Twice, Kit Carsons name came up in regards to quality and reputation. I'm sure Kit will agree that keeping this reputation requires just as much effort as building it did in the first place!!

Now if 30 blades need to be destroyed in testing to determine consitency..... I could probably have them done by the end of the year....... HMMMMMMMM......$$$$$$$$$....How about Talonite????
eek.gif

Neil

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Website just updated!
Blackwood Knives
http://www.geocities.com/Eureka/Meeting/5520/index.html
 
Way back when I started to make knives I consistently made crap, now however I do a bit better!!! Seriously, If the "custom\hand made" maker doesn't achieve good consistancy in his product, he will soon be a former knife maker. Let some guy send one of you a POS for a knife and you'll tell the whole world what kind of trash he puts out. The factory type shops (big and small) can and do use glitzy adds to promote their product but word of mouth is the prime salesman for the custom maker. You guys keep us on our toes.


smile.gif
 
I don't see consistency being an important issue in Custom knives. A custom knife is made to order. It is what two people envision as being a great product; the knife smith and the customer. Quality is high because time is taken to ansure this.

Manufacturing companies such as all the non-custom makers, have a higher potential of inconsistency due to high production leading to less quality control in order to get the product out. I was under the impression that this is what the progression from the last thread was headed, manufactured not custom.

If I ask a custom maker to make a knife out of some special alloy for me which he has never worked before, how am I to get a representative sample for testing, if more likely than not, there will not be that many knives made. If the knife fails due to some flaw in the steel or even due to design that was not compatible with the steel used, is it reasonable to expect the custom maker to replace it when he used the steel the customer requested?

How many people are going to test a McClaren F1 to see if it's 5 mph bumper can actually take the impact? Does any one have one of these to test on a wall, please? A corvette on the other hand, can and is tested because it is a high production item.

 
I don't think the issue here is how cookie cutter consistent are the knives in superficial appearance. I think it is more in quality of heat treat, fit and finish, quality of the grind and sharpening, etc. It isn't how identical one knife is to another.

Cliff hits the nail on the head when he talks about variance. The more variable a sample population is, the more difficult it is to determine the average behavior. But the statistical analysis needs to reflect EXPECTATIONS. What you are really testing is your expectations.

So for instance, out of 100 knives produced by custom maker X, how many can the public reasonably expect to be duds? I think that question is fairly complex. A reasonable component of that question might be price. If you pay high price (insert amount here: >$xxx) for a knife, I think it is reasonable to expect that the maker has a rigid QC in place so that duds will be practically nil.

In terms of art knives, it's almost a useless question for the true artist. Can you imagine sending a Chagal back and saying do it over, QC is not up to snuff (good luck-Chagal is dead).

I also think that the general public has to realize that if they are buying customs, a lot of them are made in small workshops without a factory load of equipment and we can expect some "bad day" knives or just uncontrolled variance. Maybe the maker sends his blades out for heat treat and his heat treater had a bad day. Or maybe he got a bad lot of steel or rivets or micarta or cocobolo or whatever. Things slip by even the best of scrutiny. As has been pointed out, a custom maker is not going to test every knife he makes to failure because obviously that's impossible. Nor can he control all variables all the time. But certainly he can inspect fit and finish before it leaves the shop. Expectations in this area should be high.

So ultimately, the question again is one of expectations. Nobody wants to send a knife back but is it really reasonable to expect perfection all the time?

A good example is the Sebenza. This semiproduction knife is regularly praised for its overall quality. Yet every so often I read of people who had to send their new Sebenzas back to the factory. Problems happen even when there is outstanding QC in place.

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Hoodoo

The low, hoarse purr of the whirling stone—the light-press’d blade,
Diffusing, dropping, sideways-darting, in tiny showers of gold,
Sparkles from the wheel.

Walt Whitman

[This message has been edited by Hoodoo (edited 04-24-2000).]
 
Cliff, replying to your question, I think it is safe to say no customer will likely perceive a difference. Still if they were 12" bowies, they may well have some small differences in weight and balance. Such a knife will normally weigh 16 oz. if in ATS-34, less in CPM-3V. The variation may be as much as +/- 1 oz at the extremes. The balance point may vary by +/- 1/4". This is entirely due to the deep, freehand hollow grinds that are intended to remove a lot of steel (weight) between the edge and the spine. Since there is no reasonable way to measure or adjust the exact depth and shape of these grinds, they necessarily vary some. If I were trying to match two knives I could probably cut that variation in half. since I would be grinding them back to back.

So in answer to your question, his knife may be better or not as good as the one he handled in the shop, but it will meet my personal standards and it will perform at least as well as he might have expected. Most of the variables I struggle with have nothing to do with performance, but are fit and finish related. And I can safely say the vast majority of my customers have been pleasantly surprised.

Allow me to observe though, at the edge of the envelope in pushing knife design and performance to the limit, the amount of variation will naturally be larger. In other words, if those two bowies were to be 18 oz. each, I could likely match them exactly since I would have some margin for shaving a little off the heavier blade. I don't work that way, and that is what I was saying in my first post above. I will always try to build the next one to weigh 15 oz. or less. That's precisely how I got from 20 oz. 3 years ago to 16 oz. today.

There is always a little reach in the next knife I make, a determined effort to make it better than the last. If I succeed, obviously it will be different than the last.

So should I stop striving to improve for the sake of consistency? I don't think I will.

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Jerry Hossom
www.hossom.com
 
MDP,
Another excellent topic.You take a lot of crap for your questions, but I find them to always be interesting and most of all, informative.I think some people are misunderstanding the question and thinking that you are asking if every knife should be consistent in the way they look.Correct me if I'm wrong but you were asking about consistence in quality weren't you?I think one of the main reasons anyone would buy a custom is for it's individual looks.
I think you have every right to expect consistency in quality.Quality control is one of the other main reasons that you buy a custom.Otherwise everyone would be buying their knives from low end QC makers like Ontario.Cliff has noted that you can get a great knife for the money from them or you can end up with junk.You aren't paying $400 dollars for a Marine Raider Bowie so the inconsistency is tolerable.But if I pay $400 for a custom or semi-custom knife, I EXPECT great quality from that maker.Bad knives do slip out from time to time.A lot of makers have other people do their heat treats.They must rely on that persons reputation and QC for that part of the knife.Where you really get to know the person you are dealing with is if there is a problem.Their personal customer service after the sale is what I think is the most important part of buying a custom.From what I've seen and read, most custom makers would rather eat the cost of a knife than bicker over details that could hurt their reputation.I think THAT is the biggest and most important part of the cost of custom knives.

Take care,
Jim
 
After much reading on these here forums it would seem that most custom knives, at least from mid to high end knives, are displayed in glass cases or kept under lock and key in their little pouches. With that, what points would you use to judge consistency? I mean appearance, and the mechanics of a folder seem to be the primary points, of course along with materials and construction. But how many people out there are really putting their $1200 custom knives to the test?

Brandon

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"You should never never doubt what nobody is sure about..."
 
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