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does it have to be lethal?
- Thread starter Seb
- Start date
Traditional FMA usually don´t care if they are lethal in a self-defense mode. Actually, they were battle arts designed and developed to be as deadly as possible.
So even if you are attacking only extremities (not vital organs) with a bladed weapon, there will most likely be cut arteries, which can lead to death. You need lots of practice and the right training to use a knife predictably non-lethal in a defensive situation without immediate medical care.
Using Sticks is different: Attacking only extremities with sticks will probably not lead to a fatal injury.
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"Peace is not without conflict; it is the ability to cope with conflict" - Leo Giron
www.messerforum.net - the premier German language knife-related web board
[This message has been edited by judge (edited 01-02-2001).]
So even if you are attacking only extremities (not vital organs) with a bladed weapon, there will most likely be cut arteries, which can lead to death. You need lots of practice and the right training to use a knife predictably non-lethal in a defensive situation without immediate medical care.
Using Sticks is different: Attacking only extremities with sticks will probably not lead to a fatal injury.
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"Peace is not without conflict; it is the ability to cope with conflict" - Leo Giron
www.messerforum.net - the premier German language knife-related web board
[This message has been edited by judge (edited 01-02-2001).]
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hello,
no the art does not have to be "lethal" but if you do not want to kill someone, you should not be using a knife. it's like guns, the weapon is designed to kill someone. in the philippine martial arts, that is the goal. kill him or you get killed yourself.
no the art does not have to be "lethal" but if you do not want to kill someone, you should not be using a knife. it's like guns, the weapon is designed to kill someone. in the philippine martial arts, that is the goal. kill him or you get killed yourself.
- Joined
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judge said:
"Attacking only extremities with sticks will probably not lead to a fatal injury."
This "may be true". But, it is also no guarantee that you will be the one standing at the end of the encounter! The Dog Brothers tapes show graphic examples of fighters continuing to fight after full power hits to the extremities, including kneecaps, etc.
thekuntawman said:
"if you do not want to kill someone, you should not be using a knife."
Great advice, Kuya!
Ray
"Attacking only extremities with sticks will probably not lead to a fatal injury."
This "may be true". But, it is also no guarantee that you will be the one standing at the end of the encounter! The Dog Brothers tapes show graphic examples of fighters continuing to fight after full power hits to the extremities, including kneecaps, etc.
thekuntawman said:
"if you do not want to kill someone, you should not be using a knife."
Great advice, Kuya!
Ray
I agree with the notion that a knife is a deadly weapon. I will advance this topic to encompass a grim reality: Using a knife in your defense and not killing often means maiming the opposition.
Unless, one has skills that are far beyond the level of their attacker, killing and/or maiming are part of the situation. The only other choice is to put one's self at greater risk than need be. Few people, including
one of the great Martial Artists in the world, that I have ever met has the ability to be so benevolent. The rest of us should be content with the chance to neutralize the threat, by whatever means necessary.
Unless, one has skills that are far beyond the level of their attacker, killing and/or maiming are part of the situation. The only other choice is to put one's self at greater risk than need be. Few people, including
one of the great Martial Artists in the world, that I have ever met has the ability to be so benevolent. The rest of us should be content with the chance to neutralize the threat, by whatever means necessary.
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every fighting style has techniques you can use against attackers that do not threaten there life. but what does the art specialize in determine if it is better for fighting your neighbor or a man who is trying to kill you. some systems are developed by killers, men who were freedom fighters or soldiers, and they have their specialty. some styles are developed by those who learn their art for sport, like the ones you read about so much that participate in "death matches". they are not really "death matches", just matches, but when they tell the story they are death matches. these styles talk more about how to hit the opponent (sparring styles). then you have the ones who dont spar at all, they are concepts styles, the ones that spend all day hitting each others sticks and then they talk how deadly they are.
my point is that some styles will teach you how to kicks somebody ass, then there are styles that will teach you how to end it. if you are concerned about how can you beat somebody off you instead of slashing his throat, then maybe blade fighting isnt for you, you should look for emtpy hands styles. but most of the people here are not worried about getting beat up, they are looking for a way to stop the guy who wants to hurt his family. next to a gun i cant think of a better way then the knife.
stick fighting today probably has more use as a sport unless you are one who carried a nightstick or extendabaton with you. but a knife is small, you can hide it in your pocket, and its very intimidating. and if you are fast enought to slash a throat, you can slash a hand. but even a guy can bleed to death from his hand.
most styles will specialize in hurting somebody or killing somebody. i know its hard to choose a style, but if you become good at one, you can get a few people to spar with, maybe you can create your own technique.
my point is that some styles will teach you how to kicks somebody ass, then there are styles that will teach you how to end it. if you are concerned about how can you beat somebody off you instead of slashing his throat, then maybe blade fighting isnt for you, you should look for emtpy hands styles. but most of the people here are not worried about getting beat up, they are looking for a way to stop the guy who wants to hurt his family. next to a gun i cant think of a better way then the knife.
stick fighting today probably has more use as a sport unless you are one who carried a nightstick or extendabaton with you. but a knife is small, you can hide it in your pocket, and its very intimidating. and if you are fast enought to slash a throat, you can slash a hand. but even a guy can bleed to death from his hand.
most styles will specialize in hurting somebody or killing somebody. i know its hard to choose a style, but if you become good at one, you can get a few people to spar with, maybe you can create your own technique.
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I have been saying that for a very long time, some people do not "get it."
O.K., so you think you are being benevolent, and you wound them, you cut them and disable them. Let's assume that this is a reality that we can accept in a country where clothes are heavier.
First of all, even if the knife is razor sharp and proper pressure and technique, etc., are applied, there are no guarantees that the person will be disabled to the degree that some espouse.
First of all, unless you live in a climate where light clothing is a reality, your Game Plan right out of the gate is going to be hindered. If you are living in Southern California, Arizona and other "hot" areas of the country, that approach carries alot of weight with it. More viable. You get into areas where it is cold or colder longer, you roll dice. You're rolling dice with your life. Worse yet, you roll dice with your family's life too.
You think you will be able to cut muscle "X" then tendon "Y" and again lower, muscle "Z?"
Where is that written in stone? You take what you can get for one thing, for another, you may not cause the disabling damage that you need to end the encounter.
How many of you have been in fights? It is not a Demo. It is not a Drill. Those things develop skill, it is a give and take, you feed, your partner eats, he feeds, you eat.
On the street, people flail. When they are already injured, they dump more of Nature's painkillers and whatnot and it gets even worse.
That is not even taking into consideration what Man Made Chemical Cocktail the person might be fueling himself with.
People who are "Emotionally Disturbed," read, psychotic, can break handcuff chains. I have a picture of a pair of handcuffs from a book and it looks like the person took two pair of Visegrips and tore the actual cuffs apart, not only the chain.
The person was an EDP, an "Emotionally Disturbed Person." He ripped the handcuffs apart with his teeth.
Yeah, true, and they were not Flea Market Trash handcuffs either.
You think a Yubi Tori fingerlock, with or without a knife will save you from someone like that?
Face it. There are criminals, there are EDPs and there are people who like to screw around with incredibly dangerous substances like Crank and PCP. It is out there and it is waiting for you as it is me.
Have you ever seen one of these Wack-a-loons going off? It is something to behold.
I love the concepts out there, it takes 4 to 8 cops piling on one of these freaks of nature to get them down and restrained and there is still no guarantee they will not break the restraints. Mental Hospitals have much better restraints that your average Police Precinct.
And someone thinks they are going to take a, "kinder, gentler approach," and then adjust and go lethal if need be in the span of a precious few seconds. That might fly with someone who is just out to get your wallet, but they are not the only people out there.
The knife, when you put your hand on it, is like putting your hand on a firearm. It is a lethal weapon.
If you get a disabling cut and the guy drops the knife, that's great!
If you cut him a couple times, and he is not really injured that bad and turns tail and runs, that's great!
You are still maiming him, and maiming is a very heavy charge in any State you can name.
So, even if you use this alleged "Non-Lethal Application" of a knife, which is almost ludicrous anyway because arteries and veins follow the same paths as mucles and tendons in the extremeties...you cannot help but cut the vascular targets if you are cutting the structural targets, but even if the person lived, you have maimed them and with just three good cuts that has disabled one arm and one leg, that person might be looking at up to $100,000.00 in Orthopedic Surgery, if he lost alot of blood which is almost a certainty, that is a Shock Trauma Case out of the gate too. More money, life support...all of it.
Make sure that you use a knife in situations where you would be justified in using a firearm. And, once you put your hand on the knife and the other guy knows it, that is a legal can of worms right there. The knife is not a Kubotan or Yawara.
I think the current trend towards "Non-Lethal Application of Knife" is not what it is cracked up to be on many different levels.
Added to this is, if someone pulled a knife on you in close quarters and you had a carry permit and a handgun, do you feel legally obligated to shoot the knife out of his hand?
Of course not. Lethal force can be repelled by same.
I will allow you to draw your own conclusions.
Well, just because you use a knife, doesn't mean the attacker is going to die, but that's the idea.
When the blade is used, it is deployed very quickly and the targets that are focused on of course are lethal and meant to stop him right away. The time frame for these hits are 4 per second with the average skilled Sayoc trained person, although I've seen faster. So with that in mind, by the time the threat seems over he's dripping all over the place from major vessels as well as certain nerves and tendons are severed, and that is just after the first second. So the way it works with the Sayoc Kali is, go hard or go home. If the blade is drawn, someone's dying.
Tom Kier
SAYOC KALI
The Art of the Blade
"Hail to the Rice Eaters"
Seb, I'm guessing you're just feeling things out about self defense. A lot the guys here are trained and they train to do it all in terms of weapons and empty hands.
Carrying a knife is a choice, there are folks who learn knife work and don't carry. There are folks who carry a knife and don't use it for self defense.
You might not want to hurt anyone but the baddie does and you may have to something you're not used to stop him, whether it's using a deadly weapon or your hands.
Carrying a knife is a choice, there are folks who learn knife work and don't carry. There are folks who carry a knife and don't use it for self defense.
You might not want to hurt anyone but the baddie does and you may have to something you're not used to stop him, whether it's using a deadly weapon or your hands.
And let me add my thanks to Don. Along with jrf, Livevblade and Smoke.
How on earth one can think that maiming someone clears one of legal responsibility (er... I fired a warning shot through his hipbone? ) is beyond me. It's lethal force, boys and girls and you'd better be prepared to back it up in court.
Assuming you don't get yourself killed first by trying a "Lone Ranger" type of move if attacked by a psycho, felon, or overall not nice guy who is armed & dangerous and out for your blood.
( I believe it's some time since a D.A. has asked a policeman confronted with the wrong end of an assailant's gun; "So why did you aim at his torso instead of shooting the gun out of his hand? )
I wonder if they'd ask someting equally ludicrous if a knife is involved in a clear case of self-defense 'in the gravest extreme'
would love to hear from LEO's on this topic and to their departamental regs re their use of knives
May we all stay safe and out of harm's way,
How on earth one can think that maiming someone clears one of legal responsibility (er... I fired a warning shot through his hipbone? ) is beyond me. It's lethal force, boys and girls and you'd better be prepared to back it up in court.
Assuming you don't get yourself killed first by trying a "Lone Ranger" type of move if attacked by a psycho, felon, or overall not nice guy who is armed & dangerous and out for your blood.
( I believe it's some time since a D.A. has asked a policeman confronted with the wrong end of an assailant's gun; "So why did you aim at his torso instead of shooting the gun out of his hand? )
I wonder if they'd ask someting equally ludicrous if a knife is involved in a clear case of self-defense 'in the gravest extreme'
would love to hear from LEO's on this topic and to their departamental regs re their use of knives
May we all stay safe and out of harm's way,
Guns, blades and sticks all tend to qualify as lethal force, albeit differing levels of lethal force. I know, I know. Dead is like pregnant. It's a binary state devoid of degrees. I'm simply relating what I know of the law from LFI, Firearms Academy of Seattle, and from talking with attorneys and cops -- cops whom I train with in FMA -- on the matters of weapons and the use of force.
With a stick, one could make a case that one's training gave one the ability to kill if one chose, but also gave one the ability to injure and disable an attacker with less than lethal force. However, even this could be a figurative double edged sword in that training can possibly evoke the "You of all people" argument.
IMHO it will be a VERY tall order proving less than lethal force with a knife. Punyos and the flat of the blade could be used to lock and control someone, but you'd better be damned certain of your skill. Strikes with flat of a blade might scare off a less determined attacker, but it might also p*ss off a more determined attacker.
I suppose in a crowded area, like a shopping mall, I might prefer a blade to a firearm against an attacker armed with an impact weapon. If for no other reason than I can conceal a blade from view until it's too late for the attacker and his use of deadly force in the form of a club or stick would tend to justify my use of deadly force in the form of a blade. There are probably a myriad of other situations, like I'm somewhere that I can carry a knife but not a gun.
I believe the handful of cops I train with in FMA carry knives on duty. From what they tell me, most officers they know carry knives, and the chief either approves or has not instructed them to do otherwise.
My application to law school was rejected upon discovery that my parents were married at the time of my conception.
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Ken Grubb
Lacey, WA, USA
With a stick, one could make a case that one's training gave one the ability to kill if one chose, but also gave one the ability to injure and disable an attacker with less than lethal force. However, even this could be a figurative double edged sword in that training can possibly evoke the "You of all people" argument.
IMHO it will be a VERY tall order proving less than lethal force with a knife. Punyos and the flat of the blade could be used to lock and control someone, but you'd better be damned certain of your skill. Strikes with flat of a blade might scare off a less determined attacker, but it might also p*ss off a more determined attacker.
I suppose in a crowded area, like a shopping mall, I might prefer a blade to a firearm against an attacker armed with an impact weapon. If for no other reason than I can conceal a blade from view until it's too late for the attacker and his use of deadly force in the form of a club or stick would tend to justify my use of deadly force in the form of a blade. There are probably a myriad of other situations, like I'm somewhere that I can carry a knife but not a gun.
I believe the handful of cops I train with in FMA carry knives on duty. From what they tell me, most officers they know carry knives, and the chief either approves or has not instructed them to do otherwise.
My application to law school was rejected upon discovery that my parents were married at the time of my conception.
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Ken Grubb
Lacey, WA, USA
Seb: you asked does it HAVE to end in lethal way: BG terminated...
The FMA are known for escalation of force.
Yes clothing does have inpact and can be a mitigating factor..
Yes,,blade sharpness can be a factor, environment could be a factor...but the conceptual motions of FMMA are not intended to always be lethal..depens on how you translate it..
Motions are the same Empty hand, percusive or cutting..usage is very different...has to be for the tools are different.
"Got to be"
Out of control people? gee there ar legal restraints on WHAt a medic, hospital worker etc can do,,You know that Don..
Brealk cuffs? maybe..I doubt it..with their teeth>.mighty dstrong teeth,,wish mine were that strong.
Is that like lifting the car from adrenilin dump.the old fantasy crap of the little old ladies breaking the laws of physics???
Just teasing Don....He's got a point in that things happen and pre-recorded responses whether in action or reaction, in techniques or in amount of lethal force and the result of that force can be very very unexpected..
One expects a cut to happen with set resulkts and it doesn't..guy doesn't do what you want..
FMA lets you hopefully move through all this to whatever level you need by depending on concept not specifics...
But NO it doesn't have to end in lethal force though you might need it to..
And yes,, one can EASILY move from one level to the next..Yes..I've done it..it gets done very easily..
and one needs to not take out of context what alot of us have said here cause it MIGHT sound like or look like we are saying something diferent but read closer and you'll see we are all basically saying the same thing..
The FMA are known for escalation of force.
Yes clothing does have inpact and can be a mitigating factor..
Yes,,blade sharpness can be a factor, environment could be a factor...but the conceptual motions of FMMA are not intended to always be lethal..depens on how you translate it..
Motions are the same Empty hand, percusive or cutting..usage is very different...has to be for the tools are different.
"Got to be"
Out of control people? gee there ar legal restraints on WHAt a medic, hospital worker etc can do,,You know that Don..
Brealk cuffs? maybe..I doubt it..with their teeth>.mighty dstrong teeth,,wish mine were that strong.
Is that like lifting the car from adrenilin dump.the old fantasy crap of the little old ladies breaking the laws of physics???
Just teasing Don....He's got a point in that things happen and pre-recorded responses whether in action or reaction, in techniques or in amount of lethal force and the result of that force can be very very unexpected..
One expects a cut to happen with set resulkts and it doesn't..guy doesn't do what you want..
FMA lets you hopefully move through all this to whatever level you need by depending on concept not specifics...
But NO it doesn't have to end in lethal force though you might need it to..
And yes,, one can EASILY move from one level to the next..Yes..I've done it..it gets done very easily..
and one needs to not take out of context what alot of us have said here cause it MIGHT sound like or look like we are saying something diferent but read closer and you'll see we are all basically saying the same thing..
SEB: I think you SHOULD consider studying FMAs. Even if after a year or so you decide it isn't your thing, you will have learned many things that will stay with you forever. You will gain an appreciation of how a skilled fighter might wield a blade or stick, thus developing a greater understanding of the capabilities and limitations of these weapons (even if you choose not to carry a weapon). This experience will enable you to better evaluate the real-world practicality of other knife/stick defense techniques you may encounter in martial arts classes later on. You will also learn many principles/concepts that will enable you to use improvised weapons more effectively. I feel that everyone should get at least a basic grounding in boxing, a grappling system (JuJitsu/Jujutsu, Judo, or wrestling), and the FMAs because each of these will teach you things about fighting that transcend the individual systems. JRF.
[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 01-12-2001).]
[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 01-12-2001).]
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Bram,
I think what I wrote should be taken as what I meant. That was my intention. My intention was not for anyone to read anything else into it. But to take from it and to consider it.
That having been said, I can't post the picture I have, the Manual I have is Restricted Law Enforcement Only. As you yourself know, I can't very well scan this picture or any text associated with it. That is an infringement.
I can tell you the source, and the source is not Don's Imagination.
"The Tactical Edge/Remsberg, Page 509."
I never said the guy did not lose any teeth, the guy was "mentally deranged." EDPs don't care about their teeth like you and I do. They don't feel pain like you or I do.
This is a lesson for us all. That is why I wrote it.
Escalation when dealing with someone that is obviously an EDP or Chemically Fueled will get you killed. You should be able to tell by their eyes if they are a cold blooded criminal, just out for kicks, pissed off, or if..."the lights are on, but no one is home." If you know what I mean. Anyone that has ever seen someone cranked up will know that look, they look crazed. PCP makes people sweat profusely, which is why LEOs do not like calls that contain the phrase, "naked man running down the street." In most cases around here, that means someone is smoking Dust. PCP turns the body's core temperature up so high, these people when wigged out will often strip to cool off...all of these are danger cues.
Both of us together would find it nearly impossible to cuff someone like that if they have active resistance on their mind. Some are passive. Some are passive and then explode. Some are actively exploding with no degree of separation between them. There is no time to escalate.
We are not talking about having a radio to call for help. We are talking about if you are confronted on the street by someone.
I don't make things up on here for my own amusement or anyone else's. I thought you knew me better than that.
I think what I wrote should be taken as what I meant. That was my intention. My intention was not for anyone to read anything else into it. But to take from it and to consider it.
That having been said, I can't post the picture I have, the Manual I have is Restricted Law Enforcement Only. As you yourself know, I can't very well scan this picture or any text associated with it. That is an infringement.
I can tell you the source, and the source is not Don's Imagination.
"The Tactical Edge/Remsberg, Page 509."
I never said the guy did not lose any teeth, the guy was "mentally deranged." EDPs don't care about their teeth like you and I do. They don't feel pain like you or I do.
This is a lesson for us all. That is why I wrote it.
Escalation when dealing with someone that is obviously an EDP or Chemically Fueled will get you killed. You should be able to tell by their eyes if they are a cold blooded criminal, just out for kicks, pissed off, or if..."the lights are on, but no one is home." If you know what I mean. Anyone that has ever seen someone cranked up will know that look, they look crazed. PCP makes people sweat profusely, which is why LEOs do not like calls that contain the phrase, "naked man running down the street." In most cases around here, that means someone is smoking Dust. PCP turns the body's core temperature up so high, these people when wigged out will often strip to cool off...all of these are danger cues.
Both of us together would find it nearly impossible to cuff someone like that if they have active resistance on their mind. Some are passive. Some are passive and then explode. Some are actively exploding with no degree of separation between them. There is no time to escalate.
We are not talking about having a radio to call for help. We are talking about if you are confronted on the street by someone.
I don't make things up on here for my own amusement or anyone else's. I thought you knew me better than that.
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
- Joined
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- 76,338
I know of cases of people breaking handcuffs -- not with their teeth; that's a new one on me, but by simply pulling them apart. It didn't do their wrists any good but the cuffs broke, and I'm not talking about cheap $5 cuffs, either; it's been done with middle-priced handcuffs, not the strongest available but ordinary police handcuffs....
Hysterical strength isn't any fantasy crap ... some of us can do it voluntarily, and many can in extreme circumstances without the aid of drugs -- in fact one of my neighbors lifted a truck off his baby; I posted about that incident on one of these forums -- he isn't exactly a little old lady, but he cannot lift that truck under normal circumstances. Two of the mental patients I worked with would go on a tear and perform similar feats regularly. (When that happened I did not match strength with strength with them because bones and tendons and ligaments can't take that kind of stress. When Brian or Jimmy charged the steel door I got out of their way and let them crash through it, and gave them time to calm down before I went after them. You can't keep up that kind of exertion for long even if you're a loony....)
As far as I can see the Gunting does not require escalation of force ... if the situation is such that you decide not to go that route, you have a knife ... Doh! Haven't the people who've been flaming Bram and the Gunting noticed that?
Back to the original question: Does defense have to be lethal?
That depends on the attack. The great majority of encounters between criminals and armed citizens result in a bloodless victory for the armed citizen with no shots fired. On the other hand ... it's very possible for someone to give you no choice but to kill him. Anybody can do it....
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-Cougar Allen :{)
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This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
Hysterical strength isn't any fantasy crap ... some of us can do it voluntarily, and many can in extreme circumstances without the aid of drugs -- in fact one of my neighbors lifted a truck off his baby; I posted about that incident on one of these forums -- he isn't exactly a little old lady, but he cannot lift that truck under normal circumstances. Two of the mental patients I worked with would go on a tear and perform similar feats regularly. (When that happened I did not match strength with strength with them because bones and tendons and ligaments can't take that kind of stress. When Brian or Jimmy charged the steel door I got out of their way and let them crash through it, and gave them time to calm down before I went after them. You can't keep up that kind of exertion for long even if you're a loony....)
As far as I can see the Gunting does not require escalation of force ... if the situation is such that you decide not to go that route, you have a knife ... Doh! Haven't the people who've been flaming Bram and the Gunting noticed that?
Back to the original question: Does defense have to be lethal?
That depends on the attack. The great majority of encounters between criminals and armed citizens result in a bloodless victory for the armed citizen with no shots fired. On the other hand ... it's very possible for someone to give you no choice but to kill him. Anybody can do it....
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-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
Self-defense, in general doesn't have to be lethal, but a knife changes the rules. If a situation warrants the application of a blade, then it is grave enough to warrant lethal force.
Blades, as I have been taught, should only be applied in the most dire circumstances (risk to life). When these circumstances occur, we don't have the luxury of "playing nice". My instructor freely admit that a dilletante could harm one of the best blade fighters in the world, due to the dynamic and unpredictable nature of blade fighting.
The bottom line is that, when in a fight for your life, take the kill!! There are few people on the planet that can afford to be nice, in that situation.
Blades, as I have been taught, should only be applied in the most dire circumstances (risk to life). When these circumstances occur, we don't have the luxury of "playing nice". My instructor freely admit that a dilletante could harm one of the best blade fighters in the world, due to the dynamic and unpredictable nature of blade fighting.
The bottom line is that, when in a fight for your life, take the kill!! There are few people on the planet that can afford to be nice, in that situation.